Tourette Symptoms | Tourette Support

Category: Tourette Symptoms

What's the difference between Tourette's syndrome and a 'nervous twitch?'

Question:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:5JWdncJ4LZoohS2iRVn-tg@comcast.com… | | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

| news:bop54l$1fvun5$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… | > | > "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message | > news:3FAFE50C.22ACC0D6@optonline.net… | > | steve wrote: | > | | > | > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry | > | > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. | > | | > | As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" psychiatrist | > say that | > | my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, | > oinking or | > | braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you had | to | > be | > | making animal noises to have TS !! | > | — | > | Tourette Syndrome – Now What? | > | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com | > | > The first that I’d ever heard of Tourette’s Syndrome was on Jerry | Springer! | > I thought it was a joke and thought that the people were acting, so I | > couldn’t believe it when I found out it was a real disease, and then I | found | > out that there are less ‘noticable’ symptoms of the disease… | > | > Thanks, | > | > Steve | > | | IT was no joke, that was me and my friend Steve! | | Jo Seriously, you were on TV? Whoa! I don’t remember any people or details from the program, except for the types of noises the people made. It was a while ago now. Steve (no, not that Steve!)

Response:

"Roberta" <Robe…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:cd7dd803b873268256fa3e21d72785d6@news.teranews.com… | | | | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

Response:

No need for you to apologise. I explained *just in case* you had gotten the two abbreviations confused.

Response:

"Roberta" <Robe…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:4e4fd8357b9cd6363e356ab1ecda852c@news.teranews.com… | No need for you to apologise. | | I explained *just in case* you had gotten the two abbreviations confused. Thanks Roberta, it’s better to be safe than sorry. And I can now easily see how my post could be interpreted in two different ways, D’OH! ) Thanks, Steve

Response:

"steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

news:bopa3h$1fei73$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… | | "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message | news:hZGdnaVNDtKytC2iRVn-hQ@comcast.com… | | | | | | > | | | > | Yup…Jerry, Sally Jesse, People Are Talking with Tom Bergeron, CNN, | | Today | | > | Show with Maria Shriver, Local Boston TV and Radio…Real to Real, | | > | Awakenings, Twitch and Shout, yada yada yada…… | | > | | | > | Jo the infamous | | > | | > | | > …now you’re just showing off!!! ) | | > | | > Steve | | > | | > | | | | | | nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something | to | | offer…… | | I’m guessing that a search through the Google archives will tell me more | about what’s gone on here… And I only came here to see what (if anything) | was wrong with me… ;o) This is AST or alt.support.tourette Jo was referring to squabbling within the TSA or Tourettes Syndrome Association.

Response:

Jo Cohen wrote: > > | > > …now you’re just showing off!!! ) > > Steve > nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something to > offer……

We should get a tally sheet — how many adults endure in the TSA, what is the average tenure, and how long does it take ‘em to chase off the average adult with TS ?? Who is still there, what is the average tenure, and so on. There are some lifers on the BOD, they seem to share the same views, but look at the folks who are gone … tally ‘em up! Enjoy your right to show off, Jo … until they can write an effective brochure themselves, you deserve it. Shall we compare the success of the coprolalia brochure to, for example, the "R.A.G.E." brochure? How’ bout that great educator’s in-service? LOL !!!! — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:qoidneEYwrkFsy2iRVn-sQ@comcast.com… | > | | > | | > | nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something | > to | > | offer…… | > | > I’m guessing that a search through the Google archives will tell me more | > about what’s gone on here… And I only came here to see what (if | anything) | > was wrong with me… ;o) | > | > Steve | > | > | | Don’t waste your time. | | You mentioned, I think, that your 10year old brother is having some tics? | Even more reason to figure out what’s going on. he should probably also be | evaluated at some point….please be sure he isn’t being told "just stop | that" or told that he’s "nervous" or has "Bad habits". it sounds like tic | disorder or Tourette does run in your family……good luck….. | | Jo Sorry Jo, I didn;’t explain those comments above very well… When I said I should search through the Google archives, I was referring to your banishment from the TSA, as I didn’t want to ask why because it seemed like a sensitive issue. Then when I said I only came here to see if anything was wrong with me, I was just joking that I’ve stumbled into a politics war ground! I was just kidding though! ;o) Now back to the subject! I’ve always had them called "Bad Habits," ever since I was a kid. I will continue to look into it, and although I don’t want to go do my doctor about it, I’ll happily send my mum along with my brother! Thanks for your help, and good luck with your politic battles. Thanks, Steve

Response:

> | > | Yup…Jerry, Sally Jesse, People Are Talking with Tom Bergeron, CNN, Today > | Show with Maria Shriver, Local Boston TV and Radio…Real to Real, > | Awakenings, Twitch and Shout, yada yada yada…… > | > | Jo the infamous > …now you’re just showing off!!! ) > Steve

nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something to offer……

Response:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:hZGdnaVNDtKytC2iRVn-hQ@comcast.com… | | | > | | > | Yup…Jerry, Sally Jesse, People Are Talking with Tom Bergeron, CNN, | Today | > | Show with Maria Shriver, Local Boston TV and Radio…Real to Real, | > | Awakenings, Twitch and Shout, yada yada yada…… | > | | > | Jo the infamous | > | > | > …now you’re just showing off!!! ) | > | > Steve | > | > | | | nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something to | offer…… I’m guessing that a search through the Google archives will tell me more about what’s gone on here… And I only came here to see what (if anything) was wrong with me… ;o) Steve

Response:

> | > | > | nah, just remembering back to when it was thought by TSA I had something > to > | offer…… > I’m guessing that a search through the Google archives will tell me more > about what’s gone on here… And I only came here to see what (if anything) > was wrong with me… ;o) > Steve

Don’t waste your time. You mentioned, I think, that your 10year old brother is having some tics? Even more reason to figure out what’s going on. he should probably also be evaluated at some point….please be sure he isn’t being told "just stop that" or told that he’s "nervous" or has "Bad habits". it sounds like tic disorder or Tourette does run in your family……good luck….. Jo

Response:

"steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

news:bop68n$1gr01k$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message > news:5JWdncJ4LZoohS2iRVn-tg@comcast.com… > | > | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message > | news:bop54l$1fvun5$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… > | > > | > "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message > | > news:3FAFE50C.22ACC0D6@optonline.net… > | > | steve wrote: > | > | > | > | > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry > | > | > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. > | > | > | > | As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" > psychiatrist > | > say that > | > | my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, > | > oinking or > | > | braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you > had > | to > | > be > | > | making animal noises to have TS !! > | > | — > | > | Tourette Syndrome – Now What? > | > | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com > | > > | > The first that I’d ever heard of Tourette’s Syndrome was on Jerry > | Springer! > | > I thought it was a joke and thought that the people were acting, so I > | > couldn’t believe it when I found out it was a real disease, and then I > | found > | > out that there are less ‘noticable’ symptoms of the disease… > | > > | > Thanks, > | > > | > Steve > | > > | > | IT was no joke, that was me and my friend Steve! > | > | Jo > Seriously, you were on TV? Whoa! I don’t remember any people or details > from the program, except for the types of noises the people made. It was a > while ago now. > Steve (no, not that Steve!)

Yup…Jerry, Sally Jesse, People Are Talking with Tom Bergeron, CNN, Today Show with Maria Shriver, Local Boston TV and Radio…Real to Real, Awakenings, Twitch and Shout, yada yada yada…… Jo the infamous – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:WfKdnauH0uz5gi2iRVn-vg@comcast.com… | | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

| news:bop68n$1gr01k$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… | > | > "Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message | > news:5JWdncJ4LZoohS2iRVn-tg@comcast.com… | > | | > | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message | > | news:bop54l$1fvun5$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… | > | > | > | > "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message | > | > news:3FAFE50C.22ACC0D6@optonline.net… | > | > | steve wrote: | > | > | | > | > | > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry | > | > | > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. | > | > | | > | > | As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" | > psychiatrist | > | > say that | > | > | my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, | > | > oinking or | > | > | braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you | > had | > | to | > | > be | > | > | making animal noises to have TS !! | > | > | — | > | > | Tourette Syndrome – Now What? | > | > | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com | > | > | > | > The first that I’d ever heard of Tourette’s Syndrome was on Jerry | > | Springer! | > | > I thought it was a joke and thought that the people were acting, so I | > | > couldn’t believe it when I found out it was a real disease, and then I | > | found | > | > out that there are less ‘noticable’ symptoms of the disease… | > | > | > | > Thanks, | > | > | > | > Steve | > | > | > | | > | IT was no joke, that was me and my friend Steve! | > | | > | Jo | > | > Seriously, you were on TV? Whoa! I don’t remember any people or details | > from the program, except for the types of noises the people made. It was | a | > while ago now. | > | > Steve (no, not that Steve!) | | Yup…Jerry, Sally Jesse, People Are Talking with Tom Bergeron, CNN, Today | Show with Maria Shriver, Local Boston TV and Radio…Real to Real, | Awakenings, Twitch and Shout, yada yada yada…… | | Jo the infamous …now you’re just showing off!!! ) Steve

Response:

steve wrote: > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises.

As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" psychiatrist say that my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, oinking or braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you had to be making animal noises to have TS !! — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

"TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:3FAFE50C.22ACC0D6@optonline.net… | steve wrote:

| | > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry | > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. | | As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" psychiatrist say that | my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, oinking or | braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you had to be | making animal noises to have TS !! | — | Tourette Syndrome – Now What? | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com The first that I’d ever heard of Tourette’s Syndrome was on Jerry Springer! I thought it was a joke and thought that the people were acting, so I couldn’t believe it when I found out it was a real disease, and then I found out that there are less ‘noticable’ symptoms of the disease… Thanks, Steve

Response:

"steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

news:bop54l$1fvun5$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message > news:3FAFE50C.22ACC0D6@optonline.net… > | steve wrote: > | > | > I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry > | > Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. > | > | As absurd as it still seems, we actually had a "reputable" psychiatrist > say that > | my son couldn’t have Tourette’s because he wasn’t barking, meowing, > oinking or > | braying … it was the year 1997, and the man honestly believed you had to > be > | making animal noises to have TS !! > | — > | Tourette Syndrome – Now What? > | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com > The first that I’d ever heard of Tourette’s Syndrome was on Jerry Springer! > I thought it was a joke and thought that the people were acting, so I > couldn’t believe it when I found out it was a real disease, and then I found > out that there are less ‘noticable’ symptoms of the disease… > Thanks, > Steve

IT was no joke, that was me and my friend Steve! Jo

Response:

Hi Unigamer, my tics/twitches can definitely be controlled, but like you said, after so long, I *have* to do them. I’ve tried to hold them for as long as I can, especially when there’s people around, but sooner or later, I just have to get them out of my system. Thanks, Steve "Unigamer" <takecontrolnos…@myrealboxnospam.com> wrote in message

news:%WFrb.42476$Ec1.3117996@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… | My experience with TS is that TS’s tics aren’t *quite* completely | involuntary – I can hold them back for a finite period of time, but they | must eventually come out – and holding them back may make them stronger. | | Now "nervous twitch" – that sounds like something that may be completely | involuntary, like some muscle spasms. | | Everyone here is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong. | | steve wrote:

Response:

"Jo Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:UuWdnZYQQNEGLzOiRVn-iQ@comcast.com… | | "steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

| news:bom6vj$1fh3mj$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… | > Hi there, | > | > I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s | > syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a | > website somewhere that will explain? | > | > I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of | > some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet | > cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, | > because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So | > I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old | now. | > | > Thanks for any help or advice, | > | > Steve | > | > | | Dear Steve, | | The movements you describe are indeed tics. While you may not have | Tourette Syndrome per se, it sounds like you have some multiple motor | (movement) tics and vocal tics (such as the quiet cough). It can certainly | run in the family. You might consult a neurologist, to determine whether or | not you have TS. If you do, it doesn’t mean anything about you will change! | If the tics do not bother you, or interfere with your life activities, there | would be no need to treat them medically. There are various alternative ways | to help reduce the tics that some people have found effective…..and if you | plan to have children you might want to know since it can be passed on to | children or future generations. | | Here is an excellent website to get you started…there are many more! | Good luck and feel free to ask any questions you may have! | | http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/ | | Jo Hi Jo, Thanks for your reply, and for the website link. I’ve glanced through it and read the FAQ’s, and I will keep this in my bookmarks for reference. I understand whatever I have isn’t going to be cured, but the reason I’m posting is that I’m just curious as to *what* is wrong with me. I’d ignored it for years and just got on with it, but then I noticed my brother doing the same things I did when I was a kid (he’s 10 years old), and this got my curious again. Funnily enough, my brother has also noticed me ‘nodding’ my head, and he often jokes about me by calling my ‘Noddy!’ It’s quite annoying, but I’ve had all these jokes all my life so ’sticks and stones…’ :o) Thanks, Steve

Response:

Hi there, I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a website somewhere that will explain? I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. Thanks for any help or advice, Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi there, >I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s >syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a >website somewhere that will explain? >I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of >some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet >cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, >because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So >I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. >Thanks for any help or advice, >Steve

The difference between a simple tic and/or twitch and full blown TS is that with TS you have complex motor tics lasting for over one year. Complex tics can be either body motion or making noises or saying something that you really did not order. In many cases it is a combination of vocal and motor tics at the same time

Response:

"steve" <s…@sm9.co.uk> wrote in message

news:bom6vj$1fh3mj$1@ID-99150.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, > I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s > syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a > website somewhere that will explain? > I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of > some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet > cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, > because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So > I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. > Thanks for any help or advice, > Steve

Dear Steve, The movements you describe are indeed tics. While you may not have Tourette Syndrome per se, it sounds like you have some multiple motor (movement) tics and vocal tics (such as the quiet cough). It can certainly run in the family. You might consult a neurologist, to determine whether or not you have TS. If you do, it doesn’t mean anything about you will change! If the tics do not bother you, or interfere with your life activities, there would be no need to treat them medically. There are various alternative ways to help reduce the tics that some people have found effective…..and if you plan to have children you might want to know since it can be passed on to children or future generations. Here is an excellent website to get you started…there are many more! Good luck and feel free to ask any questions you may have! http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/ Jo

Response:

"Fenisz" <fen…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031109151912.20696.00000099@mb-m24.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Hi there, > >I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s > >syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a > >website somewhere that will explain? > >I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of > >some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet > >cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, > >because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So > >I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. > >Thanks for any help or advice, > >Steve > The difference between a simple tic and/or twitch and full blown TS is that > with TS you have complex motor tics lasting for over one year. Complex tics > can be either body motion or making noises or saying something that you really > did not order. In many cases it is a combination of vocal and motor tics at > the same time

Actually for a diagnosis of TS you need both motor and at least one vocal tic, and the motor tics do not necessarily have to be ‘complex’. Jo

Response:

>Good luck and feel free to ask any questions you may have! >http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com/ >Jo

After all this time and with many of you recommending TSNW’s site, I finally had some time to go and actually read it. Great site, TSNW! You must be really proud of it…. and you should be. Jan

Response:

My experience with TS is that TS’s tics aren’t *quite* completely involuntary – I can hold them back for a finite period of time, but they must eventually come out – and holding them back may make them stronger. Now "nervous twitch" – that sounds like something that may be completely involuntary, like some muscle spasms. Everyone here is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -steve wrote: > Hi there, > I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s > syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a > website somewhere that will explain? > I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of > some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet > cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, > because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So > I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. > Thanks for any help or advice, > Steve

– Jeff (Remove both "nospam"s from the From field to reply by e-mail.)

Response:

Jan wrote: > After all this time and with many of you recommending TSNW’s site, I finally > had some time to go and actually read it.

LOL — what took ‘ya so long ) Thanks, Jan !! (I see that Jo already commented on the mistaken notion that a TS diagnosis must include complex tics … so I would just add to the original poster that one of the things that could distinguish nervous twitches from TS is when there is a history of tics or OCs in the family … which could be an indication of a tic disorder of genetic origin. If you look up the word fasciculation, you’ll get an example of a "benign" nervous twitch — that’s those eyelid twitches that many people get when tired or stressed, unrelated to TS.) — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

"Fenisz" <fen…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20031109151912.20696.00000099@mb-m24.aol.com… | >Hi there, | > | >I’ve just got a quick query. What’s the difference between Tourette’s | >syndrome and a ‘nervous twitch?’ Is there a difference, or a list on a | >website somewhere that will explain? | > | >I ask this because ever since I was a kid, I’ve always had a ‘twitch’ of | >some kind. Whether it be nodding my head, scrunching my eyes up, a quiet | >cough, bending my hand back, etc… This also seems to run in the family, | >because my mum, brother and uncle also suffer from something similar. So | >I’m just trying to figure out what it is that I have, I’m 23 years old now. | > | >Thanks for any help or advice, | > | >Steve | > | > | > | The difference between a simple tic and/or twitch and full blown TS is that | with TS you have complex motor tics lasting for over one year. Complex tics | can be either body motion or making noises or saying something that you really | did not order. In many cases it is a combination of vocal and motor tics at | the same time Hi Fenisz, thanks for your reply. I’ve never had the classic ‘Jerry Springer’ symptoms, such as making dog, cat, or sheep noises. But my symptoms have been more subtle than that. Chances are that I don’t have a mild form of Tourette’s syndrome, but I thought it should be something I should check out. Thanks, Steve

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

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TS Genetics 101

Question:

About 10 years ago, a package came from TSA addressed to me. In this box was every article, and tape about TS that TSA had. I dove into the information and found out some amazing facts about genetics, human behavior, and TS. One of the articles was about Dr. Samuel Johnson and the forensic research about his mannerisms and movements. I first came into contact with Johnson through required reading in high school. James Bostwell had written an outstanding biography about the man. The first fact that was amazing was that the first meeting of people who had children with Tourette was initiated in 1972. It came about because a couple placed an add in the Wall Street Journal and some parents gathered in a home. The amazing fact that all these families had ancestors that came from Eastern Europe and were of Askinazi Jewish origin. This was a cultural group that had for centuries intermarried within their religion, their Stadtle’s and their unique gene pool. I know a lot about my family history. My father came from a small town in Yugoslavia. There were several ethnic groups that lived in this community but none intermarried. In my case, a German would marry a German – usually from that town. Many times, the marriages were between 2nd and 3rd cousins. This custom prevailed through many generations. I also learned about Tay Sachs when I watched an episode of Marcus Welby many years ago. Some of my readings led me to the fact that this genetic disease is found in the Askinazi Jews and in the American Cajun population. The Cajuns being another interbred group. Bipolar disorder is a serious problem within the Amish community. There is a town in Venezuela where the entire community is plagued with Huningtons disease and is doomed to an early, painful death. Huningtons is believed to have originated in England and carried through the trade routes. Wherever there has been a stagnant population, there has been a problem with undesirable genes that seem to surface within that population. My first degree was in Biology. I was introduced to Gregor Mendle, an Austrian monk with a keen eye for genetic differences using the pea and studying the color of the pea blossom. Mendle was able to establish some unique observations and predictions from the results of his experiences with peas. This is where we derived the laws of dominant and recessive genes. Undergraduate and graduate students use the common fruit fly to study these laws today in university labs throughout the world. Another amazingly keen observationalist is Dr. Oliver Sachs. I have read a lot of his works and seen some his documentaries. I came into contact with Dr. David Cummings about 10 years ago at a movement disorder symposium. He discussed the term Autosomal Dominant as it relates to the occurrence to the GTS gene(s). Many of Cummings thoughts are not popular or accepted within the TS community but I found it amazing about some of things that he had to say in his book and when I heard him in person. His work has made some sense of some of my "weird" behaviors in different parts of my life. I now understand facts about my bad handwriting, my "funny" walk that I had as a child. I understand about cutting my arms with razor blades and pulling out my eyelashes. I understand about the neurotransmitter dopamine, seratonin, and histamine and how they interrelate. All this and why I make funny noises, say things and make movements that I cannot stop. This education has enabled me to accept me for who I am. Knowledge is power. This Knowledge can help others as well as myself. We have come a long ways from the Victorian asylums, electric shock treatments and pre-frontal lobotomies.

Response:

>I believe part of Comings. It is not a popular thing to say on AST but I >cannot ignore some facts.

What do you think of this, Fred? http://www.psychiatry.wustl.edu/Resources/LiteratureList/2001/Novembe… kovic.pdf Where do you fall on the Venn?

Response:

Link was too long for AOL’s hyperlinking mechanism…try this, Fred: http://tinyurl.com/ulfl

Response:

‘Twas 11 Nov 2003 21:12:06 GMT when all alt.support.tourette stood in awe as cyberb…@aol.comNONITPIK (NONITPIK) uttered: >Link was too long for AOL’s hyperlinking mechanism…try this, Fred: >http://tinyurl.com/ulfl

Brenda, you went to TinYurl and stored a broken link. Try this: http://www.psychiatry.wustl.edu/Resources/LiteratureList/2001/Novembe… — RB |

Tourette Symptoms

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6 Year OLD TOURETTE"S

Question:

Hi, My son has been diagnosed with Tourette’s and OCD. He is taking Straterra and Lexapro. Lately his TIC’s are uncontrollable to the point they exhaust him. He is in school and his teacher expressed concern for not only his TIC’s but his Behavior. The lexapro has been VERY EFFECTIVE with his OCD, more-so than I see any effect from the STRATERRA. I have been surfing for hours, and have come up with a suggesstion for his DOC., but I need help(insight) from parents who are in the same situation. I was going to suggest to take him off the Stratterra and put him on Pimozide or Haliadol. Those drugs seem to have benificial aspects that my son needs as opposed to the Stratterra. I would value all opinions. THANKS A BUNCH! Deena

Response:

"Help" <tomde…@charter.net> wrote in message

news:vp8u1ihtptal18@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My son has been diagnosed with Tourette’s and OCD. He is taking Straterra > and Lexapro. Lately his TIC’s are uncontrollable to the point they exhaust > him. He is in school and his teacher expressed concern for not only his > TIC’s but his Behavior. The lexapro has been VERY EFFECTIVE with his OCD, > more-so than I see any effect from the STRATERRA. I have been surfing for > hours, and have come up with a suggesstion for his DOC., but I need > help(insight) from parents who are in the same situation. I was going to > suggest to take him off the Stratterra and put him on Pimozide or Haliadol. > Those drugs seem to have benificial aspects that my son needs as opposed to > the Stratterra. I would value all opinions. THANKS A BUNCH! Deena

Hi Deena! I would avoid Haldol, but has he tried Geodon or Risperdal? If he doesn’t have ADHD, why is he on Straterra? Is his doctor a specialist in TS/OCD? Jo

Response:

>help(insight) from parents who are in the same situation. I was going to >suggest to take him off the Stratterra and put him on Pimozide or Haliadol.

Deena, I am the second person to tell you to stay away from Haldol. There are many side affects including turning your son into a zombie and the risk of Tartive Diskinesia. Haldol was probably the first drug to be used to combat tics and TS. There have been many more generations of drugs that will do the job for you. Side affects of any drugs are a great risk. Get yourself a PDR and inform yourself of all the meds that are presently being used for TS and then keep trying. Eventually, you will find the right combination of drugs that will work for your son. Fred in denver

Response:

Help wrote: > My son has been diagnosed with Tourette’s and OCD. He is taking > Straterra and Lexapro. Lately his TIC’s are uncontrollable to the > point they exhaust him.

My husband (TS/ADD) started taking Strattera about 7 months ago. He started on a very small dose and it wasn’t until two months after his dose was raised to the recommended dose for his weight that he started in with some major ticcing. Tics that he hasn’t had since he stopped using Aspartame (Nutrasweet) ten years ago. We’ve gradually reduced the strattera and the tics are now reducing, also. > take him off the Stratterra and put him on Pimozide or Haliadol.

My husband had a *horrible*, nightmare experience with Haldol. I would not recommend it unless the tics have already rendered your son non-functional and everything else has been tried. Karen

Response:

Help wrote: > Hi, > My son has been diagnosed with Tourette’s and OCD. He is taking Straterra > and Lexapro.

Hello Deena, Welcome to AST. My 17 year old daughter was diagnosed with TS when she was 5. Lately his TIC’s are uncontrollable to the point they exhaust > him. He is in school and his teacher expressed concern for not only his > TIC’s but his Behavior.

What sort of behavior is his teacher expressing concern about? Does she know about your sons diagnoses? > The lexapro has been VERY EFFECTIVE with his OCD, > more-so than I see any effect from the STRATERRA.

Did he start both medications simultaneously? Lexapro (or any SSRI) can cause tic exacerbations in some people. If it is helping a great deal with his OCD, then it may be one of those trade-offs we have to face when using medications. Why has he been prescribed Strattera? Is it for tics or for ADHD-type symptoms? My son is currently on Stattera (non-hyperactive, non-impulsive ADD). My daughter’s pdoc is involved in the research studies for Strattera, pertaining to children with co-morbid TS and ADHD. She feels that Strattera could be a good alternative to try for people who cannot tolerate stimulants without tic exacerbation, that some people even experience a mild improvement in tics, (but, as Karen pointed out, many folks do not tolerate it at all) but it isn’t anywhere near being a first line treatment for tics. My purely anecdotal advice from speaking to other parents of kids with ADD is that Strattera is not as effective for kids with ADHD whose primary symptoms are the hyperactive/impulsive type. There seems to be a higher rate of effectiveness for those with ADD-inattentive (the daydreamy, hyperfocusing ones). > I have been surfing for > hours, and have come up with a suggesstion for his DOC., but I need > help(insight) from parents who are in the same situation. I was going to > suggest to take him off the Stratterra and put him on Pimozide or Haliadol. > Those drugs seem to have benificial aspects that my son needs as opposed to > the Stratterra. I would value all opinions. THANKS A BUNCH! Deena

As you’ve seen already, Haldol (haloperidol) causes alarms to go off in a lot of people here. Haldol and Orap (pimozide) are powerful old-line neuroleptics, with the potential for very serious side effects. Nowadays, they are considered a last resort, not a first line treatment for TS. As Jo pointed out, there are newer neuroleptic medications on the market which, so far at least, have a lower incidence of serious side effects. Myself, I would try to exhaust other avenues before thinking about giving neuroleptics to a six year old. If you reach for the elephant gun right off the bat, you’ll never know whether the pea shooter might have worked better. The most commonly used first-line meds are clonidine and tenex. The side effect profile is much more benign than the neuros (most commonly, initial drowsyness which should go away with time, also BP should be monitored to make sure it isn’t being affected). Medications are not intended to eliminate tics as much as to reduce the frequency or intensity of the tics to a tolerable level (Tolerable for whom? Tolerable for the person actually doing the ticcing). The other side of the equation is environment, which brings us back to the school. Once again, does your son’s teacher know that your son has a medical condition which is causing the tics and/or "behavior" (in quotes because I’m not sure what you are referring to specifically)? People’s opinions vary on whether, how, and how much to disclose to the school. It’s a very individual decision for each parent to make on behalf of their kids. For us, it really wasn’t even a question; even on medication (even on neuroleptics) my daughter’s tics have always been obvious and frequent. We held an inservice training for the staff and a brief talk for the kids, to explain why she was doing these things, and to make sure they understood that she wasn’t doing it to be goofy, or annoying, or to get attention. The good thing is that, at five or six, kids are really into being helpful. It’s much easier to reach them than it is once they get to the older grades and the need for conformity rears its ugly head. These same kids from kindergarten and first grade became extremely intolerant of anyone who even thought of making a comment about my daughter’s tics, and they carried that attitude with them throughout their school years and throughout our town. Your local TSA chapter should be able to help you if you decide to inservice the school. I always had a member of my daughter’s treatment team do it, because then it was more individualized to my daughter’s own situation rather than a generic "welcome to TS" presentation. Well, I’ve gone on long enough, and have to get some coffee into my system, lol. Welcome to AST. I hope you stick around. Maryann

Response:

Hi Deena, Just wanted to second (third, fourth) others opinion here. Try the more benign TS treatments (tenex, clonidine) before going to the SSRI’s. My son has been on tenex for several years and is still doing well on it. Also, make sure your neuro is a TS specialist. Take Care, Jodi "Help" <tomde…@charter.net> wrote in message

Response:

A few days late, but some comments: I would suggest dropping the Strattera and staying on the Lexapro alone for a while. Although Strattera sounds promising in certain cases, I think the problem is that doctors don’t yet have enough experience with the drug to determine the best circumstances in which it should be used. For example, some research I read indicated it might be helpful in treating Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) in children. However, it seems a number of people have not responded favorably to Straterra. In my own case, Strattera seemed to make me feel nervous and apathetic. However, it is not 100% clear that Straterra was responsible for these symptoms, because I was trying several drugs at the time, plus the timing of everything (you have to take most drugs for a while to notice a positive effect.) So, anyway, my point is that you should probably try the well-known drugs first, before trying something like Straterra. (Or, alternatively, try Straterra alone for a while.) Which is worse – the OCD or Tourette’s symptoms? If your son has significant OCD and general anxiety, he’ll probably ‘feel’ better on the SSRI (Lexapro, as you mention.) At that age, he probably doesn’t have to worry too much about emarassing Tourette’s tics, unless they’re really bad. I’m currently taking Lexapro (10mg/day) for OCD/anxiety, Wellbutrin XL (150mg/day) for ADHD, and Ritalin (40mg/day) for ADHD. The Lexapro and Ritalin in particular seem to have helped me ‘feel’ substantially better – anxiety, mood, and concentration. Although the Ritalin has led me to ‘tic’ more (I put that in quotes because I’ve not been formally diagnosed with Tourette’s, but I suspect it.) What dosage of Lexapro is your son taking, by the way? My 5 year old son, who is a lot like me and has at least OCD, is currently taking a small dose of Paxil (1.5ml at a concentration of 5mg/10 ml) each day. One last thing, you might want to consider an IEP (Individualized Educational Program) for your son through the public school system. Its not just for severely disabled kids – they’re usually segregated based on symptom severity. They get a lot more one-on-one attention, and can later transition back to a ‘normal’ class. My son is in an IEP, and it has really helped him a lot with regards to rules, manners, and so on. They also do speech and physical therapy as well. He’s a very bright kid, and this has helped him get over the hump; he’ll probably go to a ‘normal’ first grade next year. Good luck, Mike "Help" <tomde…@charter.net> wrote in message

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

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Possibly tourette

Question:

My mom is now 88, she has had myclonic jerks for about 15 maybe 20 yrs…5 yrs ago she would take a few steps, wait for a body jerk then walk a few more steps jerk and walk again… that has passed and she walks well, with only a few jerks or what appears to be loss of balance..she has had some vocal barks, but recently they got real bad.Once she was told 80 is to old to get tourette….as a child she startled very easily, and still does now..but most of her adult life she had no symptoms..Today the Dr said it is tourette syndrome….I asked it there is any way to diagnose it… she said just from the symptoms.. I just can’t buy that from a GP, not a neurologist, who might have experience with this rare disease.. Please tell me hat you think and ask any questions to help me find out if there is a label for what my mom has…. Renee

Response:

‘Twas Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:11:46 -0400 (EDT) when all alt.support.tourette stood in awe as REN…@webtv.net (RENEE S) uttered: >My mom is now 88, she has had myclonic jerks for about 15 maybe 20 >yrs…5 yrs ago she would take a few steps, wait for a body jerk then >walk a few more steps jerk and walk again… >Today the Dr said it is tourette syndrome….I asked it >there is any way to diagnose it… she said just from the symptoms.. I >just can’t buy that from a GP, not a neurologist, who might have >experience with this rare disease..

Tourette Syndrome itself isn’t rare, but starting in adulthood is, and starting late in adulthood is vanishingly rare. Myclonic jerks are normally not Tourette Syndrome. I would get a second opinion. — RB |

Tourette Symptoms

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$1000 to cure my OCD symptom…new website

Question:

On Sat, 03 Sep 2005 19:22:38 -0400, Erik <e…@spamlovers.org> spewed: >mr-kim wrote: >> Truthfully, I would pay $1M to get rid of all my obsessions. Not that I >> have a million, but if I could finance it for 50 years, I would.

Unfortunately, it would probably take more like a billion $ to even get somebody with a chance of success to try >That’s how I feel about the medications. What I pay every month is >trivial compared to the pain and suffering that I would go through. >I hear about people that are non-complaint on their meds. I’m the >opposite. I have nightmares about not having them or having them pulled >off the market like Vioxx. Shudder.

Yeah, I just don’t get the non-compliance. Unless it’s OCD fear of meds or something about them, it’s just stupid. My dad is like that. No reason, just thinks the less he can get away with the better. Cuts down below the "therapeutic" dose, then expects it to work. But then, stupidity is VERY high in my family. In a way, I’m almost lucky that mine is "known". I may do stupid OCD crap, but at least I KNOW it’s stupid. Perhaps better than the true moron that has no clue (btw, I don’t mean unintelligent, or even ignorant, I mean STUPID). >Erik

– _____________________________________________________ For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com. Yeah, it’s really a real address

Response:

mr-kim wrote: > Truthfully, I would pay $1M to get rid of all my obsessions. Not that I > have a million, but if I could finance it for 50 years, I would.

That’s how I feel about the medications. What I pay every month is trivial compared to the pain and suffering that I would go through. I hear about people that are non-complaint on their meds. I’m the opposite. I have nightmares about not having them or having them pulled off the market like Vioxx. Shudder. Erik

Response:

Jim Patterson wrote:

> Also is there something that I could prescribed along with regular OCD > meds that might put me in a deeper sleep? A lot of exercise and a mug of ovaltine. If you want, I can write that out on a little pad of paper. — ARQ Add a dot on each side of the ‘r’ in my name and a ‘c’ in front of lara to email me.

Response:

Truthfully, I would pay $1M to get rid of all my obsessions. Not that I have a million, but if I could finance it for 50 years, I would.

Response:

Thanks, I’m going to ask my shrink about the Tourette’s thing and I’ll print this out for him. Is there any chance that Tourette’s meds don’t cause drowsiness? Also is there something that I could prescribed along with regular OCD meds that might put me in a deeper sleep? I’m wondering if the OCD meds weren’t putting me into a deep enough sleep as you suggested. I had a sleep study 3 years ago, but only slept for 20 minutes because I was too uncomfortable with all the stuff on me. Then the doctor actually had the gall to give me a diagnosis that my sleep was "normal" and charged me $150! Sorry I guess I’m venting now…I just don’t like doctors, they’ve screwed me over so many times. Anyway I’ll let my current shrink see your post…he hasn’t done much else yet though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike wrote: > Jim, > I wonder…could you have Tourette’s along with OCD? > Some background first: I have had a problem off and on that is loosely > similar to yours, but not as extreme or as long lasted. It started when I > had porcelain crowns installed over most of my teeth a few years ago (my > teeth were permanently ruined as a result of taking tetracycline [an > antibiotic] as a child.) Anyway, the dentist screwed up and forgot to "file > down" the bottom crowns before sending them off to be polished (which I > think involves "baking" them, partially melting them, thus making them > smooth). He installed them anyway, and then filed them down afterwords. > The result was that they felt _very_ rough to my tongue. The crowns were > also larger than normal, kind of bumpy. I should have made him redo them, > but the whole thing was a pretty agonizing experience, and I was anxious to > get it over with. > The roughness of my teeth really bothered me. Having OCD made it much > worse – I was constantly running my tongue along my teeth, trying to feel > each imperfection. Also, I have always had problems with grinding my teeth > at night, but this became worse with the crowns, because they didn’t fit > together very well. > Well, not long afterwards, I started having problems making the "s" sound, > or at least I thought I did (I still don’t know for certain.) (Someone else > posted something similar a while back, by the way.) It felt as if my tongue > was getting "caught" on the roughness when trying to make the sound. I > became obsessed with this and it became quite troubling. I felt I was > unable to say the "s" sound without a lisp. I would try to compensate for > this by talking slower, but this just made me sound stupid. I tried to > figure out exactly how to move my tongue in order to produce the sound > correctly. This just seemed to make the lisp worse. > Anyway, after a while, it got better. And remained better for at least a > few months. Then it came back again. This time I went back to another > dentist and was just about to pay a lot of money to fix my teeth, but then > it went away again. > I think what was happening was that the constant "excercising" of my > tongue – by moving it around my teeth, and by consciously, manually, trying > to pronounce "s" correctly – actually ended up "reconditioning" my tongue > [or maybe just made it tired] in such a way that it no longer "behaved" the > way my brain expected. I.e., my brain was long ago "programmed for speech" > with an environment – tongue and mouth – that felt and behaved in a > particular way. > Now, your conscious brain doesn’t actually get directly involved with most > of the things you do. Even driving a car, most of your actions are > "programmed" based on experience; this is why you can daydream without > wrecking. However, your conscious brain is "awoken" and starts getting > directly involved when you experience unfamiliar things. Unfortunately, > this is much less efficient than the "pre-programmed" method, leading to > considerably slower reaction times. Its also more a lot more work for your > brain – leading to mental "tiredness" if this happens too much. > Anyway, this whole process is thought to be a reward-based mechanism > crucially dependent on dopamine. (The reaction ultimately involves > seratonin as well.) The basic idea is that when your brain experiences > something that it is already familiar with, and nothing unexpected happens, > dopamine levels remain constant. When it experiences something that it is > already familiar with, and something *unexpected* happens, dopamine levels > drop – indicating a "negative" experience. Finally, altogether new > experiences cause an increase in dopamine levels – indicating a "postive" > experience. All of this is tempered with the senses, of course, to arrive > at a proper dopamine level for a given circumstance (i.e., if your hand is > burning, it may be a new thing, but it definately a negative experience.) > Of importance is that your conscious brain seems to get particularly > involved in either of the last two cases – unexpected or new experiences. I > may have some of these things mixed up, but thats the basic idea anyway. > Okay, so what has all this got to do with OCD (and other anxiety-related > disorders)? Well, although the *root* cause is not known, it is well > understood that chemical imbalances – including at least seratonin and > dopamine – are involved in some way (either directly or indirectly.) One > possibility is that this imbalance causes the affected person’s brain to be > more "sensitive" as to what constitues an "unexpected" or "new" experience, > resulting in more "peaks and valleys" of dopamine levels, whereas a "normal" > person’s dopamine levels would be more constant. The result of these peaks > and valleys may be anxiety and related disorders. (Another possibility is > that the imbalance itself is a result of dopamine peaks and valleys, and > something else is responsible for making the brain so sensitive.) In any > case, the point is that this increased sensitivity may have the side effect > of causing your conscious brain to get involved more often than it normally > would. > So what does all this have to do with you, and with Tourette’s? Well, I’ve > come to suspect that I may have Tourette’s along with OCD. If you search > for some of my other posts in this group and in alt.support.tourettes, I > have talked before about "tactile"-related "tics". These tics are actions > that I perform as a result of some sort of tactile sensation. It often > involves symmetry, such that I try to recreate the same sensations on both > sides of my body (like if I scratch one arm, I scratch the other in the same > place.) Note that it can be difficult to distinguish complex OCD > compulsions from complex Tourette’s tics. However, it is important to note > that Tourette’s tics are generally not responsive to the same medications > used to treat OCD (SSRI’s.) Interestingly, my "classical" OCD symptoms have > been helped since I’ve taken an SSRI (currently Lexapro), but my "tics" are > still present – and perhaps worse (I am also taking Ritalin, which can > exacerbate Tourette’s symptoms.) > Putting it all together, I believe that the tactile sensations created by > having rough teeth (from the crowns) triggered my already sensitive brain > (having OCD and possibly Tourette’s) into creating even more peaks and > valleys of dopamine levels, resulting in a heightened conscious awareness of > my mouth, and a general increase in anxiety and tics. The obsessions and > tics/compulsions of constantly rubbing my teeth only exacerbated the > sensitivity. My conscious brain was constantly involved, and unable to > relax. > For me, I seem to have periods of heightened and lowered anxiety. I think > that is one reason why my teeth symptoms have come and gone. > My specific points for you are the following: > 1. Try to understand the involvement of your conscious brain as noted above. > I think if you can get back to "programmed" behavior, your symptoms may > dissipate. > 2. If you were to have Tourette’s, then you may have a heightened > sensitivity to tactile sensations, as I do. This might be your biggest > problem. Perhaps medication specifically used to treat Tourette’s might > help? I have not tried this myself, but it might be worth considering. > 3. Although you mention that SSRI’s have not helped you in the past, it > still might be useful, even if the effect is just subtle. SSRI’s can be > pretty good at relieving anxiety symptoms, which is how you got started with > your problem to begin with. You mention that these medications made you > feel drowsy – well, are you sure that it was *directly* related to the > medication? For me, SSRI’s cause me to have very vivid dreams. I end up > getting too much REM sleep and not enough deep sleep – this is, I think, is > what really makes me tired; more indirectly related to the drug. The > distinction is important because 1) It has gotten better for me over time on > its own, and 2) Just going to bed earlier helps. I also take a sleep aid > (Unisom) on a regular basis (not the best thing to do, I know.) > Anyway, sorry for the extremely long post. > Good luck to you, > Mike > "Jim Patterson" <hangf…@arthur.avalon.net> wrote in message > news:Pine.HPP.3.96.1030907202416.25504A-100000@arthur.avalon.net… > > In a last desperate attempt to find a cure to my OCD symptom, I have > > created a website with a cash reward. I don’t know what else to do. I > > feel like I am just going to collapse from the stress, and I probably > > won’t get back up. > > So for godssakes if anyone knows any expert anywhere that has any idea of > > what to do please send him/her to my website. Thanks. > > http://raggedtiger.tripod.com/ocd.html

Response:

Thanks…I will try that group and show this to my shrink. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 10 Sep 2003, Ann R Quay wrote: > Jim Patterson wrote: > > Hahaha…hmmm this is actually tempting ;) Someone else actually > > suggested something like this once, but I’m not quite sure how I would > > implement it. > What’s there to figure out? Put your tooth brush away, go get some > sweets that stain your mouth, some poppy seed bagels (and cream > cheese!), some spinach or whatever else gets stuck in your teeth. Stuff > your face and go somewhere and smile at people. > If it is something the really bothers you and you are having difficulty > taking the first step, ask a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) to help > you with a plan, go on the OCD-SUPPORT group and ask for advice, get a > self-help book that explains how to make a fear hierarchy and plan to > attack your fears (‘Stop Obsessing’ by Foa and Wilson is good for this) > and there is also this support group –> > OCD-Goal > This group is a working group dedicated to "Giving OCDers Another > Lifestyle". Members should be actively working on recovery by > setting behavioral goals. Members can help each other set goals > and provide encouragement in meeting them. We also have weekly > discussion topics. Living with OCD is indeed difficult, and > confronting your fears through behavior modification can be > daunting. In this group, we aspire to support each other during this > process. Also lending his expertise is Dr. Jon Grayson (of > Philadelphia, PA) a renowned specialist in the field of OCD > behavior therapy. This is a working, not lurking, group and > members are asked to make at least one post per month. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OCD-Goal > > If I ask my psychologist or dentist about it, then I know > > their first concern would be that neglecting my teeth would actually > > cause physical harm. > That is your OCD talking. > If your psychologist is a psychologist that understands OCD, their first > concern would be helping you get your OCD’s arse kicked. She/he would > not view not brushing your teeth for a day or two and/or staining them > and getting bits stuck in them as dangerous because it’s not. It’s not > going to kill you or cause ‘actual physical harm’ (oh, the drama!) > whereas your OCD seems to causing you considerable distress. > Do you think a dentist’s opinion concerning something affecting your > mental health means very much? I surely don’t. > > And now I’m kind of wondering if I’m still even worried about how my > > teeth look or not, or if the salivating could have turned into a > > "tic". Because the salivating is so much of a problem now that I’m > > not so sure I even care what my teeth look like anymore. > Well, test it to find out. Make your teeth ugly and go out somewhere and > get smiling. You’ll get your answer soon enough. > — > ARQ > Add a dot on each side of the ‘r’ in my name > and a ‘c’ in front of lara to email me.

Response:

Jim, I wonder…could you have Tourette’s along with OCD? Some background first: I have had a problem off and on that is loosely similar to yours, but not as extreme or as long lasted. It started when I had porcelain crowns installed over most of my teeth a few years ago (my teeth were permanently ruined as a result of taking tetracycline [an antibiotic] as a child.) Anyway, the dentist screwed up and forgot to "file down" the bottom crowns before sending them off to be polished (which I think involves "baking" them, partially melting them, thus making them smooth). He installed them anyway, and then filed them down afterwords. The result was that they felt _very_ rough to my tongue. The crowns were also larger than normal, kind of bumpy. I should have made him redo them, but the whole thing was a pretty agonizing experience, and I was anxious to get it over with. The roughness of my teeth really bothered me. Having OCD made it much worse – I was constantly running my tongue along my teeth, trying to feel each imperfection. Also, I have always had problems with grinding my teeth at night, but this became worse with the crowns, because they didn’t fit together very well. Well, not long afterwards, I started having problems making the "s" sound, or at least I thought I did (I still don’t know for certain.) (Someone else posted something similar a while back, by the way.) It felt as if my tongue was getting "caught" on the roughness when trying to make the sound. I became obsessed with this and it became quite troubling. I felt I was unable to say the "s" sound without a lisp. I would try to compensate for this by talking slower, but this just made me sound stupid. I tried to figure out exactly how to move my tongue in order to produce the sound correctly. This just seemed to make the lisp worse. Anyway, after a while, it got better. And remained better for at least a few months. Then it came back again. This time I went back to another dentist and was just about to pay a lot of money to fix my teeth, but then it went away again. I think what was happening was that the constant "excercising" of my tongue – by moving it around my teeth, and by consciously, manually, trying to pronounce "s" correctly – actually ended up "reconditioning" my tongue [or maybe just made it tired] in such a way that it no longer "behaved" the way my brain expected. I.e., my brain was long ago "programmed for speech" with an environment – tongue and mouth – that felt and behaved in a particular way. Now, your conscious brain doesn’t actually get directly involved with most of the things you do. Even driving a car, most of your actions are "programmed" based on experience; this is why you can daydream without wrecking. However, your conscious brain is "awoken" and starts getting directly involved when you experience unfamiliar things. Unfortunately, this is much less efficient than the "pre-programmed" method, leading to considerably slower reaction times. Its also more a lot more work for your brain – leading to mental "tiredness" if this happens too much. Anyway, this whole process is thought to be a reward-based mechanism crucially dependent on dopamine. (The reaction ultimately involves seratonin as well.) The basic idea is that when your brain experiences something that it is already familiar with, and nothing unexpected happens, dopamine levels remain constant. When it experiences something that it is already familiar with, and something *unexpected* happens, dopamine levels drop – indicating a "negative" experience. Finally, altogether new experiences cause an increase in dopamine levels – indicating a "postive" experience. All of this is tempered with the senses, of course, to arrive at a proper dopamine level for a given circumstance (i.e., if your hand is burning, it may be a new thing, but it definately a negative experience.) Of importance is that your conscious brain seems to get particularly involved in either of the last two cases – unexpected or new experiences. I may have some of these things mixed up, but thats the basic idea anyway. Okay, so what has all this got to do with OCD (and other anxiety-related disorders)? Well, although the *root* cause is not known, it is well understood that chemical imbalances – including at least seratonin and dopamine – are involved in some way (either directly or indirectly.) One possibility is that this imbalance causes the affected person’s brain to be more "sensitive" as to what constitues an "unexpected" or "new" experience, resulting in more "peaks and valleys" of dopamine levels, whereas a "normal" person’s dopamine levels would be more constant. The result of these peaks and valleys may be anxiety and related disorders. (Another possibility is that the imbalance itself is a result of dopamine peaks and valleys, and something else is responsible for making the brain so sensitive.) In any case, the point is that this increased sensitivity may have the side effect of causing your conscious brain to get involved more often than it normally would. So what does all this have to do with you, and with Tourette’s? Well, I’ve come to suspect that I may have Tourette’s along with OCD. If you search for some of my other posts in this group and in alt.support.tourettes, I have talked before about "tactile"-related "tics". These tics are actions that I perform as a result of some sort of tactile sensation. It often involves symmetry, such that I try to recreate the same sensations on both sides of my body (like if I scratch one arm, I scratch the other in the same place.) Note that it can be difficult to distinguish complex OCD compulsions from complex Tourette’s tics. However, it is important to note that Tourette’s tics are generally not responsive to the same medications used to treat OCD (SSRI’s.) Interestingly, my "classical" OCD symptoms have been helped since I’ve taken an SSRI (currently Lexapro), but my "tics" are still present – and perhaps worse (I am also taking Ritalin, which can exacerbate Tourette’s symptoms.) Putting it all together, I believe that the tactile sensations created by having rough teeth (from the crowns) triggered my already sensitive brain (having OCD and possibly Tourette’s) into creating even more peaks and valleys of dopamine levels, resulting in a heightened conscious awareness of my mouth, and a general increase in anxiety and tics. The obsessions and tics/compulsions of constantly rubbing my teeth only exacerbated the sensitivity. My conscious brain was constantly involved, and unable to relax. For me, I seem to have periods of heightened and lowered anxiety. I think that is one reason why my teeth symptoms have come and gone. My specific points for you are the following: 1. Try to understand the involvement of your conscious brain as noted above. I think if you can get back to "programmed" behavior, your symptoms may dissipate. 2. If you were to have Tourette’s, then you may have a heightened sensitivity to tactile sensations, as I do. This might be your biggest problem. Perhaps medication specifically used to treat Tourette’s might help? I have not tried this myself, but it might be worth considering. 3. Although you mention that SSRI’s have not helped you in the past, it still might be useful, even if the effect is just subtle. SSRI’s can be pretty good at relieving anxiety symptoms, which is how you got started with your problem to begin with. You mention that these medications made you feel drowsy – well, are you sure that it was *directly* related to the medication? For me, SSRI’s cause me to have very vivid dreams. I end up getting too much REM sleep and not enough deep sleep – this is, I think, is what really makes me tired; more indirectly related to the drug. The distinction is important because 1) It has gotten better for me over time on its own, and 2) Just going to bed earlier helps. I also take a sleep aid (Unisom) on a regular basis (not the best thing to do, I know.) Anyway, sorry for the extremely long post. Good luck to you, Mike "Jim Patterson" <hangf…@arthur.avalon.net> wrote in message

news:Pine.HPP.3.96.1030907202416.25504A-100000@arthur.avalon.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In a last desperate attempt to find a cure to my OCD symptom, I have > created a website with a cash reward. I don’t know what else to do. I > feel like I am just going to collapse from the stress, and I probably > won’t get back up. > So for godssakes if anyone knows any expert anywhere that has any idea of > what to do please send him/her to my website. Thanks. > http://raggedtiger.tripod.com/ocd.html

Response:

Jim Patterson wrote:

> Hahaha…hmmm this is actually tempting ;) Someone else actually > suggested something like this once, but I’m not quite sure how I would > implement it. What’s there to figure out? Put your tooth brush away, go get some sweets that stain your mouth, some poppy seed bagels (and cream cheese!), some spinach or whatever else gets stuck in your teeth. Stuff your face and go somewhere and smile at people. If it is something the really bothers you and you are having difficulty taking the first step, ask a psychologist (not a psychiatrist) to help you with a plan, go on the OCD-SUPPORT group and ask for advice, get a self-help book that explains how to make a fear hierarchy and plan to attack your fears (‘Stop Obsessing’ by Foa and Wilson is good for this) and there is also this support group –> OCD-Goal This group is a working group dedicated to "Giving OCDers Another Lifestyle". Members should be actively working on recovery by setting behavioral goals. Members can help each other set goals and provide encouragement in meeting them. We also have weekly discussion topics. Living with OCD is indeed difficult, and confronting your fears through behavior modification can be daunting. In this group, we aspire to support each other during this process. Also lending his expertise is Dr. Jon Grayson (of Philadelphia, PA) a renowned specialist in the field of OCD behavior therapy. This is a working, not lurking, group and members are asked to make at least one post per month. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OCD-Goal > If I ask my psychologist or dentist about it, then I know > their first concern would be that neglecting my teeth would actually > cause physical harm. That is your OCD talking. If your psychologist is a psychologist that understands OCD, their first concern would be helping you get your OCD’s arse kicked. She/he would not view not brushing your teeth for a day or two and/or staining them and getting bits stuck in them as dangerous because it’s not. It’s not going to kill you or cause ‘actual physical harm’ (oh, the drama!) whereas your OCD seems to causing you considerable distress. Do you think a dentist’s opinion concerning something affecting your mental health means very much? I surely don’t. > And now I’m kind of wondering if I’m still even worried about how my > teeth look or not, or if the salivating could have turned into a > "tic". Because the salivating is so much of a problem now that I’m > not so sure I even care what my teeth look like anymore. Well, test it to find out. Make your teeth ugly and go out somewhere and get smiling. You’ll get your answer soon enough. — ARQ Add a dot on each side of the ‘r’ in my name and a ‘c’ in front of lara to email me.

Response:

> You wrote (from your site): – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ‘For some reason, my OCD was causing me to concentrate more and more on > the appearance of my teeth and gums. The gums on my front teeth had > receded slightly due to gum disease years before, and I began obsessing > about them possibly receding more and looking bad…’ > I get the sense that you are obsessed about the appearance of your teeth > and gums. Is this the case? If so, perhaps you need to focus on that in > terms of your treatment rather than trying to stop your salivation. > Forget about trying to stop the salivation and focus your treatment on > why you think about your mouth. If you can reduce the amount of times > you think about your mouth a reduction in salivation would follow. > Perhaps try to make your teeth and gums look really ugly and walk around > smiling at everyone – imaging your gums receding by the hour. Don’t > brush your teeth for a few days, make sure you get a few bits of spinach > or poppy seeds stuck in between your teeth maybe eat some candy that > stains your mouth, etc… and go show the world your smile. Take a close > up picture of your smile and post it up on your website for all of us to > see. Create a website called ‘Jim’s Gum Cam’ and post daily pics of all > the gross stuff you can wedge between your teeth. Perhaps doctor photos > of your mouth to digitally make your gums recede – maybe make an > animation of it – yeah, make your gums recede and all your teeth fall > out.

Hahaha…hmmm this is actually tempting ;) Someone else actually suggested something like this once, but I’m not quite sure how I would implement it. If I ask my psychologist or dentist about it, then I know their first concern would be that neglecting my teeth would actually cause physical harm. And now I’m kind of wondering if I’m still even worried about how my teeth look or not, or if the salivating could have turned into a "tic". Because the salivating is so much of a problem now that I’m not so sure I even care what my teeth look like anymore. This is weird, but I’ve also wondered if having sex with the person who caused me to obsess about my looks in the first place would make the obsession go away. But obviously that isn’t something I can cause to happen, and it probably won’t. The person moved away at one time and I thought the OCD might go away then but it didn’t. This whole thing is so complicated…I am convinced that if anyone can figure out to cure this OCD symptom, they could cure ANY OCD symptom.

Response:

> Jim, It seems really apparent to me that you have lost all faith in this > guy. (psychiatrist) Dump him! Call the psychiatric crisis line. Just > because he’s a psychiatrist doesn’t mean he cares about his job or anyone > else but himself. They aren’t perfect. This guys sounds like he’s on job > burn out or something. I went to a psychiatrist once that was more > interested in telling me about the new book he was writing than listening to > my problems. It’s been years since I went to him but I still remember his > last words. "well, times up, and I’ve heard enough of your problems today > anyway."

OMG! lol Unfortunately I’ve been to several and so I can’t tell if they’re all bad and if I’m just getting the best of the worst or not. Plus it is harder to find an actual OCD expert rather than a general shrink. Where would I go to find a local psychiatric crisis line? Are they very common? I haven’t even heard of a psychiatric service that helps for FREE…do they really just talk as long as you need them to?!? Thanks

Response:

Oh God. I really feel helpless here. I know I have been there, that seriously desperate feeling. One night it was so bad..so so so bad that I called the crisis line. I never thought I would be the kind of person that had to do that. But you know something. It was a real professional that I talked to. A real psychologist. I thought at the time that I was having premonitions of dying. That I was going to die when I had my baby. I couldn’t sleep at night. My heart beat kept me up all night pounding. I had to shake my foot off the side of the bed so I wouldn’t feel my heart beat. I was so obsessed about it. Just that one call got me on the road to help. I think it was the first night in a couple of months that I had felt any peace. It really helped. He calmed me down and he also gave me direction. They can direct you and sometimes get you in somewhere sooner. Get you to someone who can really help. If you need to, call the psychiatric hot line. They should have one in your area. They will listen. I promise. Take care… thinking of you Sue

Response:

Thank you. Well I just called my shrink and of course he wasn’t there. I’ve been e-mailing him for 3 weeks with no response. He made an appointment with a dentist for me which was nice, but since then I’ve apparently lost all contact with him. I guess I wish the psychiatrists would stop listening and tell me something I can do to get rid of this. The stress yesterday was so bad that sometimes my mind is just stopping and all my thoughts, etc. just freeze. I really think this is going to kill me soon. And no I’m not suicidal, I mean I just think the stress itself is going to make me pass out and probably not get back up. This has been going on for two years with no progress.

Response:

Jim, It seems really apparent to me that you have lost all faith in this guy. (psychiatrist) Dump him! Call the psychiatric crisis line. Just because he’s a psychiatrist doesn’t mean he cares about his job or anyone else but himself. They aren’t perfect. This guys sounds like he’s on job burn out or something. I went to a psychiatrist once that was more interested in telling me about the new book he was writing than listening to my problems. It’s been years since I went to him but I still remember his last words. "well, times up, and I’ve heard enough of your problems today anyway." See….they aren’t perfect and some of them are down right stupid. Most of them have never had any kind of experience in the real world. But they can read a book really fast. <grin> So, I would call the crisis line and talk to someone who wants to help you. That’s why they work there. And one thing, if you pass out, you pass out, but you’ll wake up..you’ll breath. It will be ok. It’s going to pass. I promise. Take care…and call someone now! Lbn

Response:

Jim Patterson wrote:

> In a last desperate attempt to find a cure to my OCD symptom, You wrote (from your site): ‘For some reason, my OCD was causing me to concentrate more and more on the appearance of my teeth and gums. The gums on my front teeth had receded slightly due to gum disease years before, and I began obsessing about them possibly receding more and looking bad…’ I get the sense that you are obsessed about the appearance of your teeth and gums. Is this the case? If so, perhaps you need to focus on that in terms of your treatment rather than trying to stop your salivation. Forget about trying to stop the salivation and focus your treatment on why you think about your mouth. If you can reduce the amount of times you think about your mouth a reduction in salivation would follow. Perhaps try to make your teeth and gums look really ugly and walk around smiling at everyone – imaging your gums receding by the hour. Don’t brush your teeth for a few days, make sure you get a few bits of spinach or poppy seeds stuck in between your teeth maybe eat some candy that stains your mouth, etc… and go show the world your smile. Take a close up picture of your smile and post it up on your website for all of us to see. Create a website called ‘Jim’s Gum Cam’ and post daily pics of all the gross stuff you can wedge between your teeth. Perhaps doctor photos of your mouth to digitally make your gums recede – maybe make an animation of it – yeah, make your gums recede and all your teeth fall out. — ARQ Add a dot on each side of the ‘r’ in my name and a ‘c’ in front of lara to email me.

Response:

In a last desperate attempt to find a cure to my OCD symptom, I have created a website with a cash reward. I don’t know what else to do. I feel like I am just going to collapse from the stress, and I probably won’t get back up. So for godssakes if anyone knows any expert anywhere that has any idea of what to do please send him/her to my website. Thanks. http://raggedtiger.tripod.com/ocd.html

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

0 RESPONSES

Lack of focus w/ Strattera

Question:

Hi – I tried strattera for 2 months. Seem to work great at first, but then I started not being able to concentrate. I felt a bit mentally foggy too. Does this go away after a while? And does the time of day that you take it impact focus? I tried taking it at different times. I took it either 80mg in the morning or 40mg in the morning and 40mg at about 6pm (any later it kept me up). I’m back on desipramine now, which gives me more drive, but the side effects and the short term memory loss are killing me! I felt great on strattera, other than the drive and the focus. (Perhaps I need a stimulant w/ the strattera) Thanks

Response:

I’m back on desipramine now, which gives me more drive, but the side effects and the short term memory loss are killing me!

What side effects are you experiencing from Desipramine? At what dosage?

Response:

I’m back on desipramine now, which gives me more drive, but the side effects and the short term memory loss are killing me! What side effects are you experiencing from Desipramine? At what dosage?

taking about 25mg just before bed (1/2 of a 50) side effects: -only sleep 4-5 hours a night (and feel zombie-ish the rest of the day, like I really need to sleep, but cannot) -weird memory problems -get really depressed in the afternoon… sort of like clockwork -irritability

Response:

I’m back on desipramine now, which gives me more drive, but the side effects and the short term memory loss are killing me! What side effects are you experiencing from Desipramine? At what dosage? taking about 25mg just before bed (1/2 of a 50) side effects: -only sleep 4-5 hours a night

(and feel zombie-ish the rest of the day, like I really need to sleep, but cannot) -weird memory problems -get really depressed in the afternoon… sort of like clockwork -irritability

I was prescribed Desipramine 12 days ago, .25 mg once a day. I was prescribed it because I my ability to compensate for my ADHD is history, and in the last few years I have become extremely hyperactive, irritable, incredibly easy to distract, unable to focus or remain task oriented. Worse, some symptoms of OCD got activated and I waste my time indulging that. Plus, I have anergic depression, a physiological depression considered a residue from my having been hypoT for several years. Desipramine immediately relieved ALL the hyperactivity and irritibility which was a tremendous relief for me. Since beginning it I am finding myself becoming more and more task oriented, and having more ability to follow through on what I start, and my being less willing to indulge the urge to engage in compulsive behavior, all very positive too. The big negative is those benefits seem to be coming at the cost of mental alertness, so although I am more task oriented, and have more follow through and completing more tasks…I am committing more errors than I ever have before, stupid errors, owing to a dulling of my mental alertness, or not being as mentally sharp as I always have been even in the worse brain fog accompanies hypoT. I am hoping this "dopeyness" is a side effect that will lift once my body acclimated to it…which I was told will take about 2-3 week mark. I take it before bedtime and find I am sleeping less, too…but I thought that was because my sleep is much more restful, as I awake much more rested than i have awakened in a couple of years. I have also been getting a slightly tight feeling in the center of my chest, whenever I read any of TSNW’s scaremongering posts about cardiac toxicity and sudden death associated with Desipramine. I would have preferred to take Tofinil, but that only relieves symptoms of ADHD, while Desimpramine relieves ADHD plus a dash of OCD… So far, I feel I am responding positively as it is relieving most of the symptoms I took it to relieve. I am going to wait it out the doped up or dopeyness at least until I been on it a full 3 weeks, to see if it goes away. Have you been on it at least 3 weeks, because it takes anywhere from 2 to 3 weeks to become fully effective and for the side effects to wan?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m back on desipramine now, which gives me more drive, but the side effects and the short term memory loss are killing me! What side effects are you experiencing from Desipramine? At what dosage? taking about 25mg just before bed (1/2 of a 50) side effects: -only sleep 4-5 hours a night (and feel zombie-ish the rest of the day, like I really need to sleep, but cannot) -weird memory problems -get really depressed in the afternoon… sort of like clockwork -irritability I was prescribed Desipramine 12 days ago, .25 mg once a day. I was prescribed it because I my ability to compensate for my ADHD is history, and in the last few years I have become extremely hyperactive, irritable, incredibly easy to distract, unable to focus or remain task oriented. Worse, some symptoms of OCD got activated and I waste my time indulging that. Plus, I have anergic depression, a physiological depression considered a residue from my having been hypoT for several years. Desipramine immediately relieved ALL the hyperactivity and irritibility which was a tremendous relief for me. Since beginning it I am finding myself becoming more and more task oriented, and having more ability to follow through on what I start, and my being less willing to indulge the urge to engage in compulsive behavior, all very positive too. The big negative is those benefits seem to be coming at the cost of mental alertness, so although I am more task oriented, and have more follow through and completing more tasks…I am committing more errors than I ever have before, stupid errors, owing to a dulling of my mental alertness, or not being as mentally sharp as I always have been even in the worse brain fog accompanies hypoT. I am hoping this "dopeyness" is a side effect that will lift once my body acclimated to it…which I was told will take about 2-3 week mark. I take it before bedtime and find I am sleeping less, too…but I thought that was because my sleep is much more restful, as I awake much more rested than i have awakened in a couple of years.

Just when I was all set to congratulate you for how well things are going with the desipramine and wish you continued success … I have also been getting a slightly tight feeling in the center of my chest, whenever I read any of TSNW’s scaremongering posts about cardiac toxicity and sudden death associated with Desipramine.

… you invoke my name to accuse me of "scaremongering." I believe this is an example of what you call "flaming?" Throwing my name into a conversation for bait. I do not mean to scare you, and I don’t know why you call reporting the facts "scaremongering." You are an adult, and the conversation we had involved using desipramine for a child. The deaths occurred, you knew about them, you discussed them as well, and I did not engage in a dialogue about those facts in an effort to "scaremonger," rather to point out exactly why few doctors will prescribe TCAs for TS — to a mother of a young child who was hoping to use them for TS after she read your post. I also told you I knew of a young child who did very well on another TCA, nortriptyline. As I mentioned to you, there simply aren’t many people with TS online who have tried TCAs, so you’re more likely to find this kind of information you’re seeking on asa-d. If you’ve had adequate cardiac monitoring before starting desipramine, and while on it, the literature seems to indicate that you’ll most likely do fine. I do not mean to scare you, and I continue to wish you well with your trial of desipramine. I’m not aware of the use of TCAs being a big issue in an adult who has had the proper cardiac monitoring, and I believe the investigations about the deaths would support the idea that you should do fine with appropriate cardiac monitoring. I hope you will be able to continue your trial of desipramine without undue worries. I’m glad that you’re finding that desipramine also helps with OCD … that is a helpful bit of info to have for future information. I would have preferred to take Tofinil, but that only relieves symptoms of ADHD, while Desimpramine relieves ADHD plus a dash of OCD… So far, I feel I am responding positively as it is relieving most of the symptoms I took it to relieve. I am going to wait it out the doped up or dopeyness at least until I been on it a full 3 weeks, to see if it goes away. Have you been on it at least 3 weeks, because it takes anywhere from 2 to 3 weeks to become fully effective and for the side effects to wan?

– Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

years. If you’re taking a T4-only thyroid supplement, like synthroid, you might consider adding some T3, or taking a mixed supplement like Armour. There are some studies that show people do better when both T4 and T3 are supplemented than with T4 alone. Also, if you just don’t have any energy, you might be undermedicated; doctors really prefer to keep patients on the low end of normal, to avoid inducing hyperthyroid, but if you’re not getting enough thyroid you’ll still have hypo symptoms. Another thing that has helped me get energy back is exercise, as counterintuitive as that might sound. The body will respond to exercise by raising the metabolic rate, and I think this effect is not mediated by the thyroid. To start with exercise will most likely feel awful (speaking from experience here but over time it’s worth it if it gets your body revved up again. The big negative is those benefits seem to be coming at the cost of mental alertness, so although I am more task oriented, and have more follow through and completing more tasks…I am committing more errors than I ever have before, stupid errors, owing to a dulling of my mental alertness, or not being as mentally sharp as I always have been even in the worse brain fog accompanies hypoT. I am hoping this "dopeyness" is a side effect that will lift once my body acclimated to it…which I was told will take about 2-3 week mark.

I took Elavil (which is also a TCA) for a while for insomnia – turned out it wasn’t right for me, as it made my RLS a whole lot worse, but I did find that the stupid feeling I had while I was on it seemed to wear off after a couple of weeks. I take it before bedtime and find I am sleeping less, too…but I thought that was because my sleep is much more restful, as I awake much more rested than i have awakened in a couple of years.

My doctor told me to take the Elavil earlier in the evening to help make me feel less dopey during the day, you might check with yours to see if it’s a good idea to move it earlier. You might find you sleep a little better if it’s already working when you go to bed. So far, I feel I am responding positively as it is relieving most of the symptoms I took it to relieve.

Hurray, this is a good thing Katherine

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

0 RESPONSES

Retrospective Study: Desipramine for ADHD + TS or CTD

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Patrick wrote: > "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message > news:3F54A01A.E9A832FA@optonline.net… > > > > the deaths due to cardiac effects, > > > Weren’t those deaths in the 80’s? > > I should have more accurately said, before widespread publication and > knowledge about the deaths … I > > don’t know the actual dates of all of the deaths, > I just remember that we were *really* talking about > > them at the 98 conference, when the information seemed to have become more > widely published, > So basically you are posting gossip?

You’re up to about three "nice trys" for the day Did you read the journal article that NKinsley posted which said exactly what Scahill said at the conference? > The deaths occurred in the 80’s.

Did you know about the deaths all along in this discussion? > They were widely publicized in the 80’s.

And the ‘93 journal report on nortriptyline didn’t even mention the cardiotoxicity of tricyclics nor the deaths from desipramine. Not once, anywhere, in the entire article. It mentions the risks from neuroleptics, the risks from stimulants (reflecting thinking in 1993), limitations of clonidine, and so on, but never any risk from tricyclics. I’m not reading from an abstract – I’ve got the full journal report. And the deaths were so widely reported that they aren’t even mentioned in the article you cite, from 1993. The point was, when did this become an issue of general concern and discussion in the TS community? AFTER the journal reports suggesting that tricyclics were useful for treating TS, and many people began to inquire about them as an alternative for treating ADHD in the presence of tics, many unaware of the issue of cardiotoxicity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The proof being, in 1990 Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals Inc. changed the > package insert for Norpramin (Desipramine) to include the following > statement: " There has been a report of an ‘acute collapse’ and ’sudden > death’ in an eight-year-old (18 kg.) male treated for two years for > hyperactivity. There have been additional reports of sudden death in > children." > on the heels > > of the studies on tricyclics which you posted from ‘93 and ‘95. > Wrong. > The deaths were well publicised in the 80’s, so much so the mfg noted them > in their insert by 1990. > The 1993-2002 studies about the advantages of Desipramine in a subset of the > ADHD population were conducted years after the sudden deaths occurred and > were widely publicised. > > > You don’t have TS or Tics and ADHD, and your children don’t have ADHD > with > > > their tics/TS. > > Is that a necessary qualification for being able to discuss the research ? > > If so, don’t apply a different standard to me than to yourself, as you > have not established what > > diagnoses you and/or your son have. > I don’t think anyone who made the monstrous effort you have been making to > distance TS from ADHD, and in a manner wherein you have let the world know > you perceive those with ADHD as the lepers of our time, possesses the > objectivity to engage in any intelligent dialogue regarding ADHD or it’s > treatment.

Nice try. ADHD is not TS. Being a different condition doesn’t make it leprosy: that just makes it a different condition which responds to different treatment. Which means if you lump them together, you may not get the right treatment. And, it is not I who "distances" TS from ADHD. If credible research ever shows that ADHD is part and parcel of TS, I’ll endorse that and the notion that stimulants could be a treatment for TS. In the meantime, I’ll stick to reporting and discussing the research and medical consensus . > > > You post hype and propaganda encouraging other people and other people’s > > > children having comorbid TS and ADHD to take stimulants that will > increase > > > the availability of dopamine. > > I post controlled, journal-published research. > > Not hype, not propaganda, not personal opinion. > ROFLMOA > I posted the controlled, journal-published research about Desipramine.

Albeit, very old research, which downplayed a serious side effect. (I don’t mean to imply that desipramine is so dangerous that it should not be used, just to note that you rail against other meds, while endorsing one with a more serious side effect profile.) > You have posted nothing but your personal opinions in your replies knocking > it, opinions based upon > your CLAIM your personal doctor said such and such, your claim you had a > discussion with Scahil and he said such and such, your hearing scuttlebutt > about 80’s sudden death at a conference in 1998, and your friends > swearing by Nortriptiline, owing to positive results in her child.

Scuttlebutt? The deaths did not occur? The many journal reports about the relative lack of use of tricyclics due to their adverse side effect profile is scuttlebutt? The fact that we discuss the research and the data at a conference among treating professionals turns real, credible data into "scuttlebutt?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > You do so knowing full well people with ADHD alone are at NO higher > risk of > > > developing serious psychiatric illness then those with TS alone. > > > "Rates of ….disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders, > > > neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school functioning were > > > indistinguishable in children with Tourette’s and ADHD." > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > > Where do we disagree? > "Rates of … disruptive behavioral, mood, and > > anxiety disorders, neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school > functioning were indistinguishable > > in children with Tourette’s and ADHD. > ADHD has the same exact rate of disruptive behavior, mood and anxiety > disorders, neuropsych disoders etc as TS does. > The rate of severe comorbid conditions in ADHD only skyrockets when tics are > comorbid with adhd, owing to CTD or TS.

You are misinterpreting the conclusions — maybe because you have only the abstract, and not the full report? I have the full text of the complete journal report right here, keep it handy, use it a lot. If you ever want to stop flaming and start discussing, I can take the time to type up the substantial segments of the report which will help you see that you are misinterpreting the results and to discuss the implications. For example, sentences like the conclusion (p. 1042), "our findings from a large population of referred youth indicate that comorbidity with disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders a well as cognitive dysfunction previously associated with Tourette’s syndrome may be secondary to the comorbidity with ADHD." > Since TS is the disorder with the underlying inflammatory disease associated > with it, not ADHD, and its having an underlying inflammatory disease thats > associated with severe mental illness, it seems to me that whatever > underlies TS is what causes severe comorbidity in TS plus ADHD and not the > other way around.

See quote above. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > You hype stimulants for children with TS plus ADHD knowing full well > having > > > both TS and ADHD does make the child vulnernable to having comorbid > > > psychitric conditions activated on top of their neuro condition. > > I repeatedly caution against the use of stimulants unless the presence of > bipolar has been ruled out. > That’s not the only mental illness people with TS need to worry about. > SZA and SZ are concerns where tics, especially mild tics are present. > > > "children with Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD had more additional > comorbid > > > disorders overall and lower psychosocial function than children with > ADHD." > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > > > You do so knowing those who have TS plus ADHD are vulnernable to bipolar > > > disorder. > > I do agree that childhood-onset bipolar is all too often misdiagnosed as > ADHD, and I bang that drum often > > and loudly, as the use of stimulants in the presence of possible > undiagnosed bipolar is dangerous. In > > fact, because using stimulants in the presence of undiagnosed bipolar can > have such a detrimental effect > > on the course of bipolar in children, I always advocate that people sort > out their symptoms rather than > > attributing them all to TS. > > You are advocating for the use of tricyclics, when they also can aggravate > mania and have serious adverse > > side effects. > > Where is the difference? > Big difference. > Stimulants make more dopamine available, therefore can *activate* bipolar > disorder, and psychosis of schizophrenia in people who never would have > had it activated if they hadn’t been given something made more dopamine > available. > Desipramine acts on Norepinephrine, so might worsen symptoms of > schizophrenia, and worsens manic depression, but AFAIK it doesnt activate > SZ or BPD..

Which means that TCAs aren’t really any safer in certain, vulnerable populations than stimulants are, and supports the notion that treating professionals should very carefully tease out potential diagnoses before prescribing. > > And, if you didn’t know it…they are also vulnernable to having > > > Schizophrenia activated. > > > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2002 Dec;26(7-8):1245- > > > Comorbidity of Tourette’s syndrome and schizophrenia–biological and > > > physiological parallels. > > > Muller N, Riedel M, Zawta P, Gunther W, Straube A. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > > Speculation about 5 cases. Not controlled research. > Better then your rebuttals based upon scuttlebutt u pick up at conferences.

Once again, are you saying that the deaths due to tricyclics were just "scuttlebutt" just because we … read more »

Response:

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003 06:15:18 -0700, "Patrick" <Patr…@N0spam.com> wrote: >What is it you have against children with TS and ADHD that you wish SZ BPD >or SZA on them, too?

Linda, you are reading much too much into what TSNW wrote. Perhaps there are buttons being pushed? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

"TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:3F54A01A.E9A832FA@optonline.net… > > > the deaths due to cardiac effects, > > Weren’t those deaths in the 80’s? > I should have more accurately said, before widespread publication and

knowledge about the deaths … I > don’t know the actual dates of all of the deaths,

I just remember that we were *really* talking about > them at the 98 conference, when the information seemed to have become more

widely published, So basically you are posting gossip? The deaths occurred in the 80’s. They were widely publicized in the 80’s. The proof being, in 1990 Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals Inc. changed the package insert for Norpramin (Desipramine) to include the following statement: " There has been a report of an ‘acute collapse’ and ’sudden death’ in an eight-year-old (18 kg.) male treated for two years for hyperactivity. There have been additional reports of sudden death in children." on the heels > of the studies on tricyclics which you posted from ‘93 and ‘95.

Wrong. The deaths were well publicised in the 80’s, so much so the mfg noted them in their insert by 1990. The 1993-2002 studies about the advantages of Desipramine in a subset of the ADHD population were conducted years after the sudden deaths occurred and were widely publicised. > > You don’t have TS or Tics and ADHD, and your children don’t have ADHD with > > their tics/TS. > Is that a necessary qualification for being able to discuss the research ? > If so, don’t apply a different standard to me than to yourself, as you

have not established what > diagnoses you and/or your son have.

I don’t think anyone who made the monstrous effort you have been making to distance TS from ADHD, and in a manner wherein you have let the world know you perceive those with ADHD as the lepers of our time, possesses the objectivity to engage in any intelligent dialogue regarding ADHD or it’s treatment. > > You post hype and propaganda encouraging other people and other people’s > > children having comorbid TS and ADHD to take stimulants that will increase > > the availability of dopamine. > I post controlled, journal-published research. > Not hype, not propaganda, not personal opinion.

ROFLMOA I posted the controlled, journal-published research about Desipramine. You have posted nothing but your personal opinions in your replies knocking it, opinions based upon your CLAIM your personal doctor said such and such, your claim you had a discussion with Scahil and he said such and such, your hearing scuttlebutt about 80’s sudden death at a conference in 1998, and your friends swearing by Nortriptiline, owing to positive results in her child. > > You do so knowing full well people with ADHD alone are at NO higher risk of > > developing serious psychiatric illness then those with TS alone. > > "Rates of ….disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders, > > neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school functioning were > > indistinguishable in children with Tourette’s and ADHD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > Where do we disagree?

"Rates of … disruptive behavioral, mood, and > anxiety disorders, neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school

functioning were indistinguishable > in children with Tourette’s and ADHD.

ADHD has the same exact rate of disruptive behavior, mood and anxiety disorders, neuropsych disoders etc as TS does. The rate of severe comorbid conditions in ADHD only skyrockets when tics are comorbid with adhd, owing to CTD or TS. Since TS is the disorder with the underlying inflammatory disease associated with it, not ADHD, and its having an underlying inflammatory disease thats associated with severe mental illness, it seems to me that whatever underlies TS is what causes severe comorbidity in TS plus ADHD and not the other way around. > > You hype stimulants for children with TS plus ADHD knowing full well having > > both TS and ADHD does make the child vulnernable to having comorbid > > psychitric conditions activated on top of their neuro condition. > I repeatedly caution against the use of stimulants unless the presence of

bipolar has been ruled out. That’s not the only mental illness people with TS need to worry about. SZA and SZ are concerns where tics, especially mild tics are present. > > "children with Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD had more additional comorbid > > disorders overall and lower psychosocial function than children with ADHD."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > > You do so knowing those who have TS plus ADHD are vulnernable to bipolar > > disorder. > I do agree that childhood-onset bipolar is all too often misdiagnosed as

ADHD, and I bang that drum often > and loudly, as the use of stimulants in the presence of possible

undiagnosed bipolar is dangerous. In > fact, because using stimulants in the presence of undiagnosed bipolar can

have such a detrimental effect > on the course of bipolar in children, I always advocate that people sort

out their symptoms rather than > attributing them all to TS. > You are advocating for the use of tricyclics, when they also can aggravate

mania and have serious adverse > side effects. > Where is the difference?

Big difference. Stimulants make more dopamine available, therefore can *activate* bipolar disorder, and psychosis of schizophrenia in people who never would have had it activated if they hadn’t been given something made more dopamine available. Desipramine acts on Norepinephrine, so might worsen symptoms of schizophrenia, and worsens manic depression, but AFAIK it doesnt activate SZ or BPD.. > And, if you didn’t know it…they are also vulnernable to having > > Schizophrenia activated. > > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2002 Dec;26(7-8):1245- > > Comorbidity of Tourette’s syndrome and schizophrenia–biological and > > physiological parallels. > > Muller N, Riedel M, Zawta P, Gunther W, Straube A.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > Speculation about 5 cases. Not controlled research.

Better then your rebuttals based upon scuttlebutt u pick up at conferences. > > So its children at greater risk for developing bipolar disorder and > > schizophrenia that you encourage be given stimulants. > I encourage sorting out diagnoses, specifically, ruling out bipolar. > You are advocating for tricyclics, which also can aggravate mania. > Where is the difference?

I am not advocating for tricyclics. I am posting posts to instigate discussion, like we are having, to ensure no known facts have escaped my attention. > My position is that stimulants have been shown to be safer than tricyclics and safer than the > alternatives, but that bipolar should always be ruled out in either case. My position is that > misattributing the symptoms of bipolar or ADHD to TS is likely to result

in the wrong treatment.. Yet, the only posts ever posted to AST about stimulant use in people with TS are horror stories by parent’s/guardian of children dxd with ADHD first only to find out their child has TS, when stimulants incited tics and behavior in such children it caused great fear in parent/guardians they were raising the next "Charles Manson".

Response:

Patrick wrote: > "TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message > news:3F546EDA.9C9AE637@optonline.net… > > Patrick wrote: > > > J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1993 Mar;32(2):354-60. > > Notice the date of this retrospective, preliminary study. Desipramine > looked > > promising for the treatment of ADHD in the presence of tics, but that was > before > > the deaths due to cardiac effects, > Weren’t those deaths in the 80’s?

I should have more accurately said, before widespread publication and knowledge about the deaths … I don’t know the actual dates of all of the deaths, I just remember that we were *really* talking about them at the 98 conference, when the information seemed to have become more widely published, on the heels of the studies on tricyclics which you posted from ‘93 and ‘95. > > and before the studies showing that > stimulants also worked for most people, were safer, and had a lower side > effect > > profile. > You don’t have TS or Tics and ADHD, and your children don’t have ADHD with > their tics/TS.

Is that a necessary qualification for being able to discuss the research ? If so, don’t apply a different standard to me than to yourself, as you have not established what diagnoses you and/or your son have. > You post hype and propaganda encouraging other people and other people’s > children having comorbid TS and ADHD to take stimulants that will increase > the availability of dopamine.

I post controlled, journal-published research. Not hype, not propaganda, not personal opinion. > You do so knowing full well people with ADHD alone are at NO higher risk of > developing serious psychiatric illness then those with TS alone. > "Rates of ….disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders, > neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school functioning were > indistinguishable in children with Tourette’s and ADHD." > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&…

Here are the full results and conclusions from that abstract, which confirm everything I’ve been saying on this thread: "RESULTS: Disorders specifically associated with Tourette’s syndrome were obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) and simple phobias. Rates of other disorders, including other disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders, neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school functioning were indistinguishable in children with Tourette’s and ADHD. However, children with Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD had more additional comorbid disorders overall and lower psychosocial function than children with ADHD. CONCLUSIONS: These findings confirm previously noted associations between Tourette’s syndrome and OCD but suggest that disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders as well as cognitive dysfunctions may be accounted for by comorbidity with ADHD. However, Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD appears to be a more severe condition than ADHD alone." This research repeats my points: OCD is thought to be specifically associated with TS. But, "disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders as well as cognitive dysfunctions may be accounted for by comorbidity with ADHD." Comorbid conditions and other environmental influences alter the course and severity of TS. Where do we disagree? > You hype stimulants for children with TS plus ADHD knowing full well having > both TS and ADHD does make the child vulnernable to having comorbid > psychitric conditions activated on top of their neuro condition.

I repeatedly caution against the use of stimulants unless the presence of bipolar has been ruled out. > "children with Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD had more additional comorbid > disorders overall and lower psychosocial function than children with ADHD." > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… > You do so knowing those who have TS plus ADHD are vulnernable to bipolar > disorder.

I do agree that childhood-onset bipolar is all too often misdiagnosed as ADHD, and I bang that drum often and loudly, as the use of stimulants in the presence of possible undiagnosed bipolar is dangerous. In fact, because using stimulants in the presence of undiagnosed bipolar can have such a detrimental effect on the course of bipolar in children, I always advocate that people sort out their symptoms rather than attributing them all to TS. You are advocating for the use of tricyclics, when they also can aggravate mania and have serious adverse side effects. Where is the difference? > And, if you didn’t know it…they are also vulnernable to having > Schizophrenia activated. > Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2002 Dec;26(7-8):1245- > Comorbidity of Tourette’s syndrome and schizophrenia–biological and > physiological parallels. > Muller N, Riedel M, Zawta P, Gunther W, Straube A. > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&…

Speculation about 5 cases. Not controlled research. > So its children at greater risk for developing bipolar disorder and > schizophrenia that you encourage be given stimulants.

I encourage sorting out diagnoses, specifically, ruling out bipolar. You are advocating for tricyclics, which also can aggravate mania. Where is the difference? > Don’t stimulants increase the availability of dopamine? > Isn’t an excess of dopamine the leading hypothesis for what activates > symptoms of schizophrenia? > Isn’t an increase availablity of dopamine activating of psychotic mania in > those with bipolar disorder with genes where BPD can be activated? > Yet, you hype stimulants be given to the very children at highest risk for > having BPD, SZA or SZ activated?

My position is that stimulants have been shown to be safer than tricyclics and safer than the alternatives, but that bipolar should always be ruled out in either case. My position is that misattributing the symptoms of bipolar or ADHD to TS is likely to result in the wrong treatment.. > What is it you have against children with TS and ADHD that you wish SZ BPD > or SZA on them, too?

You’re flaming. Nice try. — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

Patrick wrote: > J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1993 Mar;32(2):354-60.

Notice the date of this retrospective, preliminary study. Desipramine looked promising for the treatment of ADHD in the presence of tics, but that was before the deaths due to cardiac effects, and before the studies showing that stimulants also worked for most people, were safer, and had a lower side effect profile. — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

"TSNW" <t…@optonline.net> wrote in message

news:3F546EDA.9C9AE637@optonline.net… > Patrick wrote: > > J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry. 1993 Mar;32(2):354-60. > Notice the date of this retrospective, preliminary study. Desipramine looked > promising for the treatment of ADHD in the presence of tics, but that was before > the deaths due to cardiac effects,

Weren’t those deaths in the 80’s? > and before the studies showing that

stimulants also worked for most people, were safer, and had a lower side effect > profile.

You don’t have TS or Tics and ADHD, and your children don’t have ADHD with their tics/TS. You post hype and propaganda encouraging other people and other people’s children having comorbid TS and ADHD to take stimulants that will increase the availability of dopamine. You do so knowing full well people with ADHD alone are at NO higher risk of developing serious psychiatric illness then those with TS alone. "Rates of ….disruptive behavioral, mood, and anxiety disorders, neuropsychologic correlates, and social and school functioning were indistinguishable in children with Tourette’s and ADHD." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… You hype stimulants for children with TS plus ADHD knowing full well having both TS and ADHD does make the child vulnernable to having comorbid psychitric conditions activated on top of their neuro condition. "children with Tourette’s syndrome plus ADHD had more additional comorbid disorders overall and lower psychosocial function than children with ADHD." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… You do so knowing those who have TS plus ADHD are vulnernable to bipolar disorder. And, if you didn’t know it…they are also vulnernable to having Schizophrenia activated. Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2002 Dec;26(7-8):1245- Comorbidity of Tourette’s syndrome and schizophrenia–biological and physiological parallels. Muller N, Riedel M, Zawta P, Gunther W, Straube A. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… So its children at greater risk for developing bipolar disorder and schizophrenia that you encourage be given stimulants. Don’t stimulants increase the availability of dopamine? Isn’t an excess of dopamine the leading hypothesis for what activates symptoms of schizophrenia? Isn’t an increase availablity of dopamine activating of psychotic mania in those with bipolar disorder with genes where BPD can be activated? Yet, you hype stimulants be given to the very children at highest risk for having BPD, SZA or SZ activated? What is it you have against children with TS and ADHD that you wish SZ BPD or SZA on them, too?

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

0 RESPONSES

involuntary movements

Question:

deidz…@aol.comnojunk (Melinda Smith) a

Tourette Symptoms

0 RESPONSES

Dang myoclonus

Question:

In article <3uf4kvcp4c4bm3c03ma7o592h9k79u4…@4ax.com>, kcat <kca…@newsguy.com> wrote [ >Bro, my "diet" could have not enough of anything. There's no telling.

There is - it doesn't [snip notalot] >so it could be salt, magnesium or any number of nutrients I’m missing. >I can’t seem to get in the habit of taking vitamins.

I didn’t believe in the "fresh air diet" – I’m not so sure now… — Andy [Chair, N E Lupus Group] See http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus for more!

Response:

Yeah, I got those tics too. My hands will jump onto the wrong keys, and yes, I have done Calligraphy and Kan-ji and can imagine. even drawing. You need to see the movie "Maze" starring Rob Morrow. He plays an artist with Tourette’s syndrome. Its a cool flick. Anyway, I had decided that my antidepressant was causing the myoclonus. I went off that antidepressant, and tried two others. I suffered hellish depression when the other two AD’s did not help. Now I am back on the original one, and though I have a tremor, that’s okay with me. So yer not alone, is all I can say. Mair "kcat" <kca…@newsguy.com> wrote in message

news:lct2kv8v1f4gtl1mbc8sf5eqcusf5ki456@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> or whatever this is. > lately it seems my large muscle groups are spasming several times a > day. it isn’t painful – just weird. Irritating if I’m trying to write > something pretty with a calligraphy pen. Body pitches forward or one > side sort of "bunches up."

Response:

>Subject: Re: Dang myoclonus >From: "Mair" stin…@earthlink.net >Date: 8/19/2003 3:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time >Message-id: <CQw0b.210$Ej6….@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net> >Yeah, I got those tics too. My hands will jump onto the wrong keys, and >yes, I have done Calligraphy and Kan-ji and can imagine. even drawing. >You need to see the movie "Maze" starring Rob Morrow. He plays an artist >with Tourette’s syndrome. Its a cool flick. >Anyway, I had decided that my >antidepressant was causing the >myoclonus.

It is very common .. The use of neuroleptics is KNOWN to cause tardive in those who use them for over three months .. Due to the increase of iron disposition in the brain .. Isr J Med Sci 1993 Sep;29(9):587-92 Iron modulates neuroleptic-induced effects related to the dopaminergic system. Ben-Shachar D, Livne E, Spanier I, Zuk R, Youdim MB Department of Pharmacology, B. Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion Haifa, Israel. Long-term neuroleptic medication to schizophrenic patients is often associated with extrapyramidal side effects, of which tardive dyskinesia is the most severe. The mechanism by which neuroleptics induce these side effects is unclear. The dopaminergic system is the main target with which the neuroleptics interact in the brain. Intact dopaminergic function is dependent on normal iron metabolism. Thus, the relationship between iron and the neuroleptics may elucidate some new aspects of their mechanism of action. Indeed, peripheral iron status plays a crucial role in neuroleptic-induced dopamine supersensitivity. Moreover, neuroleptics such as haloperidol and chlorpromazine, alter the blood brain barrier (BBB) of the rat and enhance the normally restricted iron transport into the brain. Increased brain iron levels may be related to the toxic effects of these drugs since clozapine, an atypical neuroleptic with a low incidence of extrapyramidal side effects, prohibits iron uptake into the brain but causes sedimentation of iron in brain blood vessels. The demonstration that peripheral iron concentrations affect neuroleptic-induced dopamine receptor supersensitivity as well as iron transport into the brain may have therapeutic significance. In addition, the different potentials of typical and atypical neuroleptics to increase iron transport into the brain may be related to the severity of the side effects they induce and to the pathophysiology of tardive dyskinesia. Publication Types: Review Review, tutorial Quercetin .. an iron binder has been shown to have significant results / reduction of incidence of tardive in the animal model .. Neuropharmacology. 2003 Jun;44(8):1100-6. Related Articles, Links Quercetin, a bioflavonoid, attenuates haloperidol-induced orofacial dyskinesia. Naidu PS, Singh A, Kulkarni SK. Pharmacology Division, University Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, Panjab University, -160014, Chandigarh, India. Chronic treatment with neuroleptics leads to the development of abnormal orofacial movements described as vacuous chewing movements (VCMs) in rats. Vacuous chewing movements in rodents are widely accepted as one of the animal models of tardive dyskinesia. Oxidative stress and the products of lipid peroxidation are implicated in the pathophysiology of various neurological disorders including tardive dyskinesia. In the present study chronic haloperidol (1.0 mg kg(-1) for 21 days) treatment induced vacuous chewing movements and tongue protrusions in rats. Co-administration of quercetin, a bioflavonoid, dose dependently (25-100 mg kg(-1)) reduced haloperidol-induced vacuous chewing movements and tongue protrusions. Biochemical analysis revealed that chronic haloperidol treatment induces lipid peroxidation and decreases the glutathione (GSH) levels in the forebrains of rats. The antioxidant defense enzymes, superoxide dismutase (SOD) and catalase were also decreased due to chronic haloperidol treatment. Co-administration of quercetin (25-100 mg kg(-1)) significantly reduced the lipid peroxidation and restored the decreased glutathione levels in these animals. Further quercetin (50-100 mg kg(-1)) also reversed the haloperidol-induced decrease in forebrain SOD and catalase levels in rats. The major findings of the present study suggested that oxidative stress plays a significant role in neuroleptic-induced orofacial dyskinesia and quercetin co-administration reverses these behavioral and biochemical changes. Quercetin, a naturally occurring bioflavonoid could prove to be a useful agent in neuroleptic-induced orofacial dyskinesia. PMID: 12763102 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Hosp Community Psychiatry 44 (1): 25-34 (Jan 1993) Progress in the treatment of tardive dyskinesia: theory and practice Feltner DE, Hertzman M National Institute of Mental Health, St. Elizabeths Hospital, Washington, D.C. 20032. OBJECTIVE: About 20 percent of patients receiving long-term treatment with neuroleptic medications develop tardive dyskinesia. A 1988 review of treatment studies for the disorder found that 40 percent of patients showed at least 50 percent improvement in symptoms. This paper reviews studies published since 1984, including those not reviewed in 1988, to learn whether new or improved treatments for the disorder have been developed. METHODS: Twenty-five open, blind, or double-blind studies (with a minimum of five patients) published between 1984 and May 1992 were examined. The studies involved neuroleptics, including clozapine, dopaminergic and dopamine-depleting agents, GABAergic drugs, vitamin E, calcium channel blockers, and adrenergic drugs. RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS: Overall, only 26 percent of patients who participated in the studies reviewed had a 50 percent or greater reduction in symptoms. The authors conclude that treatment of tardive dyskinesia remains a highly individual process and recommend that future studies be more carefully designed. ———- http://www.google.com/groups?q=tardive+and+iron&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sc… =r&selm=b4561f33.0203181431.2f598da7%40posting.google.com&rnum=5 Who loves ya. Tom Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

Response:

or whatever this is. lately it seems my large muscle groups are spasming several times a day. it isn’t painful – just weird. Irritating if I’m trying to write something pretty with a calligraphy pen. Body pitches forward or one side sort of "bunches up."

Response:

Hi Kcat! I’ve noticed a little of that with my hands too. I guess it’s just one more for the book. <sigh> Mine aren’t painful either & I’m definitely grateful for that! How is Bayta doing? You’ve been in my thoughts & I read that you were going to the vet the other day. I also read about the disease/condition she has, but don’t remember what it’s called now. How are they treating it & has her pain been managable? Hugs, Maggie

Response:

In article <lct2kv8v1f4gtl1mbc8sf5eqcusf5ki…@4ax.com>, kcat <kca…@newsguy.com> wrote >or whatever this is. >lately it seems my large muscle groups are spasming several times a >day. it isn’t painful – just weird. Irritating if I’m trying to write >something pretty with a calligraphy pen. Body pitches forward or one >side sort of "bunches up."

Could your diet have not enough, or too much, salt? In this heat, maybe you need a different amount from usual. — Andy [Chair, N E Lupus Group] See http://www.kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk/lupus for more!

Response:

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:17:37 +0100, Andy <a…@kitzbuhel.demon.co.uk> wrote: >In article <lct2kv8v1f4gtl1mbc8sf5eqcusf5ki…@4ax.com>, kcat ><kca…@newsguy.com> wrote >>or whatever this is. >>lately it seems my large muscle groups are spasming several times a >>day. it isn’t painful – just weird. Irritating if I’m trying to write >>something pretty with a calligraphy pen. Body pitches forward or one >>side sort of "bunches up." >Could your diet have not enough, or too much, salt? In this heat, maybe >you need a different amount from usual.

BWAWAHAHAHAHAA <picking self up from floor> Bro, my "diet" could have not enough of anything. There’s no telling. Yesterday’s meals consisted of: 10:00 a.m. 1 can Ensure 12:00 p.m. about 1/2 oz of Cheerios with about 1/3 cup milk (2%) and a teaspoon of sugar. 3:00 p.m. two buttermilk waffles liberally drizzled with butter and syrup plus 1/3 cup milk 7:00 p.m. five oreos and 6 ozs milk 10:00 p.m. 3 prunes (bleah bleah bleah ick hack ick!) 11:00 one strand of "red licorice" (not really licorice) with small piece removed to give to dog (’s okay – just sugar and gelatin) Great diet eh? and that’s a lot more than I usually eat ’cause I lost two pounds this past weekend and am trying to get them back. so it could be salt, magnesium or any number of nutrients I’m missing. I can’t seem to get in the habit of taking vitamins.

Response:

Tourette Symptoms

0 RESPONSES

Skin-Picking

Question:

Joanne Cohen wrote: > In response to the post about skin-picking. It took me a bit to get this. > Excerpt from their book OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDERS > Practical Management Third Edition (1998) > by Michael Jenike, Lee Baer, and William Minichiello, with Jenike’s > permission: > Jo

Thanks for taking the time to type up all that info for us — I often encounter questions about skin-picking compulsions, and this post will be useful for responding to those questions. — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com

Response:

>Sara asked what time is was and you gave a history of watch making.

That’s okay. Sara being Sara, she enjoyed the history of watch making. Sara

Response:

"Randall Bart" <Barti…@att.spam.net> wrote in message

news:b1qhhvsi4jpn822feh3u9bkvl3m6f1j3fk@4ax.com… > ‘Twas Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:40:43 GMT when all alt.support.tourette stood in > awe as "Joanne Cohen" <joco…@comcast.net> uttered: > >In response to the post about skin-picking. It took me a bit to get this. > >Excerpt from their book OBSESSIVE-COMPULSIVE DISORDERS > Sara asked what time is was and you gave a history of watch making. > — > RB |

Tourette Symptoms