Research
Question:
A mostly recovered (possibly in active denial) OCD’er may be a little boring. What do you think? If not, (and to use a quote from Mr. Bush), "bring it on." Erik – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dana wrote: > Greetings. > I am a PhD student at the University looking for people to participate > in a study about OCD. I am interested in what it is like to live with > OCD on a daily basis, coping strategies, and how the Internet is used > as a source of support. Participants must be age 18+. Identities > will be kept confidential to the extent provided by law. I would like > people to answer some questions by e-mail and keep a diary for two > weeks. As a poor graduate student, I can not offer any financial > compensation for participating. However, research in narratives > suggests that putting your life into story can be a health strategy in > itself. If you’re interested in participating, please contact me at > dfenn…@ufl.edu > Thanks!
Response:
Not at all boring. I got an error message saying that my e-mail to you got delayed. Let me know if I need to resend. :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Erik <email4e…@nospam.org> wrote in message <news:3FA9AD6F.8050107@nospam.org>… > A mostly recovered (possibly in active denial) OCD’er may be > a little boring. What do you think? If not, (and to use > a quote from Mr. Bush), "bring it on." > Erik > Dana wrote: > > Greetings. > > I am a PhD student at the University looking for people to participate > > in a study about OCD. I am interested in what it is like to live with > > OCD on a daily basis, coping strategies, and how the Internet is used > > as a source of support. Participants must be age 18+. Identities > > will be kept confidential to the extent provided by law. I would like > > people to answer some questions by e-mail and keep a diary for two > > weeks. As a poor graduate student, I can not offer any financial > > compensation for participating. However, research in narratives > > suggests that putting your life into story can be a health strategy in > > itself. If you’re interested in participating, please contact me at > > dfenn…@ufl.edu > > Thanks!
Response:
Greetings. I am a PhD student at the University looking for people to participate in a study about OCD. I am interested in what it is like to live with OCD on a daily basis, coping strategies, and how the Internet is used as a source of support. Participants must be age 18+. Identities will be kept confidential to the extent provided by law. I would like people to answer some questions by e-mail and keep a diary for two weeks. As a poor graduate student, I can not offer any financial compensation for participating. However, research in narratives suggests that putting your life into story can be a health strategy in itself. If you’re interested in participating, please contact me at dfenn…@ufl.edu Thanks!
Response:
Ikke, I would still be very interested in your model, hopefully you’ll soon be able to put it together. "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message
news:v2DTa.28865$F92.3208@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> At least it will give some interesting background information. I’m not sure > whether it discusses specifically the OCD dragon state. > You can always try to mail the author for advise on books about OCD > treatment. > I have to remark that playing with "meta states" may be dangerous if done > alone without good knowledge. For that reason, > professional assistance may be advisable. As you noticed already, the > "meta-state" theory is also based on a Cognitive Behaviour Model, with a > slightly different accent than CBT. If you are interested in "meta state" > assistance, you can find contact info at the homepage: > http://www.neurosemantics.com . I must say however, that I don’t have any > experience with these guys, but it can’t harm to send them a mail or give > them a ring… > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > news:bfmt03$ado$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > Hi Ikke, do you think "Dragon Slaying" is well worth buying? > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > news:RNBTa.28740$F92.3102@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > Hi Thinker, > > > I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick > > answer: > > > It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting > info > > > to start with. > > > Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an explanation > of > > > OCD in order to find a solution 
> > > Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and > the > > > negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive > > > downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens in > > some > > > way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational > > judgement > > > in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds > absurd, > > > but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of > > > anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own > > fear > > > = panic) . > > > Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as follows > > > (this is my opinion): > > > Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety > > mechanism > > > that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency > it > > > occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a > > dangerous > > > event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking is > > used > > > by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. > So > > > this is a very important mechanism to survive. > > > Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect about > > past > > > experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the > reflexion > > > (imaginary) and the real event. > > > So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime > we > > > think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect > > about > > > it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this > > > feedback spirals down into a real obsession. > > > This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. > > > To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting > book > > > (I didn’t read it myself): > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm > > > Ikke > > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > > news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my > own > > > > > coping patterns: > > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > > > > This might be a good starting point… > > > > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get pretty > > > > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta > states, > > > but > > > > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I do > > see > > > > an obscure connection.
Response:
As promised, some article concerning self organizing systems in psychology (in case you missed it in another thread): http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic23.htm "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfnioi$qad$1@news1.mountaincable.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ikke, I would still be very interested in your model, hopefully you’ll soon > be able to put it together. > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > news:v2DTa.28865$F92.3208@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > At least it will give some interesting background information. I’m not > sure > > whether it discusses specifically the OCD dragon state. > > You can always try to mail the author for advise on books about OCD > > treatment. > > I have to remark that playing with "meta states" may be dangerous if done > > alone without good knowledge. For that reason, > > professional assistance may be advisable. As you noticed already, the > > "meta-state" theory is also based on a Cognitive Behaviour Model, with a > > slightly different accent than CBT. If you are interested in "meta state" > > assistance, you can find contact info at the homepage: > > http://www.neurosemantics.com . I must say however, that I don’t have any > > experience with these guys, but it can’t harm to send them a mail or give > > them a ring… > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > news:bfmt03$ado$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > Hi Ikke, do you think "Dragon Slaying" is well worth buying? > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > news:RNBTa.28740$F92.3102@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > Hi Thinker, > > > > I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick > > > answer: > > > > It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting > > info > > > > to start with. > > > > Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an > explanation > > of > > > > OCD in order to find a solution > > > > Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and > > the > > > > negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive > > > > downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens > in > > > some > > > > way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational > > > judgement > > > > in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds > > absurd, > > > > but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of > > > > anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own > > > fear > > > > = panic) . > > > > Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as > follows > > > > (this is my opinion): > > > > Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety > > > mechanism > > > > that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency > > it > > > > occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a > > > dangerous > > > > event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking > is > > > used > > > > by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. > > So > > > > this is a very important mechanism to survive. > > > > Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect > about > > > past > > > > experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the > > reflexion > > > > (imaginary) and the real event. > > > > So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime > > we > > > > think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect > > > about > > > > it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this > > > > feedback spirals down into a real obsession. > > > > This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. > > > > To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting > > book > > > > (I didn’t read it myself): > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm > > > > Ikke > > > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > > > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my > > own > > > > > > coping patterns: > > > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > > > > > This might be a good starting point… > > > > > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get > pretty > > > > > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta > > states, > > > > but > > > > > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I > do > > > see > > > > > an obscure connection.
Response:
Thinker, I will continue to try to pull it together in a digestible format for a slow interactive medium like newsgroups (in English which isn’t my native language). In the mean time, I will keep looking for URL’s which contain some similarities with my model which is always interesting as additional background. Below an OCD therapist report: "Some clients, I make a point of visiting at home prior to working with them. One lady I saw who had some of the best OCD rituals I have ever witnessed had a fixation about losing things. Whilst most OCD clients can be broadly categorized into ‘Washers’ or ‘Checkers.’ This client was a checker in the extreme. She could never throw anything away, lest she lose something of value. I had to ask the natural question, did she actually have anything valuable to lose? She didn’t. Her life was so dominated by this strategy, that she was unable to work and consequently lived on State benefits. She was taking her prescribed Paroxetine (an SSRI), lorazepam (in industrial doses) and sulpiride (an old drug used by psychiatrists for drugging schizophrenics) – an interesting pharmacological mixture. She was unkempt, smelly, anxious, looked eccentric (read ‘crazy’) and was socially isolated. A few years previously she had been hospitalised after complaints by neighbours had lead to the Environmental Health Team visiting her house. She was briefly hospitalized and medicated whilst her house was steam-cleaned. When I visited, her house was incredible in that it was brimming with junk and rubbish. Nothing was ever thrown away. On top of her bathroom cabinet, she had several small jam-jars full of fluff – belly button fluff! She couldn’t throw it out just in case that during the action of throwing it away, she would throw something of value away. Her bath, shower and sinks all had little sieves over them to filter through the water in case something might drop off and be flushed away. Disposal and hygiene were coded as a complex equivalence with loss. Now, it seems to me that these things are not equal. Three more questions I wanted to know the answers to: What happens when she uses the toilet? (This elicited the humourous reaction I was intending and yes, she filtered her urine.) How would she know if she didn’t throw something of value away’? (She, as expected, didn’t have an answer to this.) How would she know if she had indeed thrown something of value away? (Did she have separate and specific criteria?) Her sorting strategy was simple and global: Throwing any object/item away was equal to losing something of value. Unlike the OCD person mentioned earlier, she didn’t have a threshold contained within the strategy that could be reached by her current behaviour that would enable her to exit the TOTE. The second test in the TOTE was never met, except when she took a shit. She also had no sorting criteria for what actually constituted an item of value. When a old carton of milk cannot be differentiated in value from a gold coin, it can go one of two ways – either the carton is extremely valuable, or the gold coin is as worthless as an old carton. I somehow doubted that drugging her was going to be the thing that was going to help her with regards to this issue. Her psychiatrist, meanwhile, had the complex equivalent that her behaviour was equal to a chemical imbalance that needed medicating. And yet, she was able to competently reach the second Test in her TOTE when she took a shit – she did possess a strategy for disposing of unwanted waste that didn’t produce anxiety for her. This was all that was necessary in order to build a new set of generalisations for her and a new strategy for living. This took about 5 sessions – the actual change took probably a few minutes to do, it took me all that time to discover the right way of packaging the solution. OCD will present the NLP Practitioner with an interesting challenge especially if the client has previously received [unsuccessful] therapy. Psychiatry is ever increasingly suggesting biological reasons for ‘mental disease’ and I am seeing increasingly numbers of people suggest that they are genetically predisposed to their particular problem. Increased interest and awareness of Tourette’s Syndrome, a neurological activity that comes complete with obsessions and rituals similar on the surface to OCD, is allowing the psychiatric industry to investigate further the neurological basis of OCD and obsessive behaviours. None of this appears to benefit the clients who have explored the psychiatric route for OCD ‘treatment’. And yet, for the NLP Practitioner, a single session resolution should not be an impossibility " This is an excerpt from http://www.23nlpeople.com/OCD.htm "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfnioi$qad$1@news1.mountaincable.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ikke, I would still be very interested in your model, hopefully you’ll soon > be able to put it together. > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > news:v2DTa.28865$F92.3208@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > At least it will give some interesting background information. I’m not > sure > > whether it discusses specifically the OCD dragon state. > > You can always try to mail the author for advise on books about OCD > > treatment. > > I have to remark that playing with "meta states" may be dangerous if done > > alone without good knowledge. For that reason, > > professional assistance may be advisable. As you noticed already, the > > "meta-state" theory is also based on a Cognitive Behaviour Model, with a > > slightly different accent than CBT. If you are interested in "meta state" > > assistance, you can find contact info at the homepage: > > http://www.neurosemantics.com . I must say however, that I don’t have any > > experience with these guys, but it can’t harm to send them a mail or give > > them a ring… > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > news:bfmt03$ado$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > Hi Ikke, do you think "Dragon Slaying" is well worth buying? > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > news:RNBTa.28740$F92.3102@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > Hi Thinker, > > > > I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick > > > answer: > > > > It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting > > info > > > > to start with. > > > > Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an > explanation > > of > > > > OCD in order to find a solution > > > > Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and > > the > > > > negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive > > > > downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens > in > > > some > > > > way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational > > > judgement > > > > in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds > > absurd, > > > > but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of > > > > anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own > > > fear > > > > = panic) . > > > > Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as > follows > > > > (this is my opinion): > > > > Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety > > > mechanism > > > > that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency > > it > > > > occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a > > > dangerous > > > > event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking > is > > > used > > > > by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. > > So > > > > this is a very important mechanism to survive. > > > > Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect > about > > > past > > > > experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the > > reflexion > > > > (imaginary) and the real event. > > > > So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime > > we > > > > think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect > > > about > > > > it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this > > > > feedback spirals down into a real obsession. > > > > This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. > > > > To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting > > book > > > > (I didn’t read it myself): > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm > > > > Ikke > > > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > > > news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > > > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my > > own > > > > > > coping patterns: > > > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > > > > > This might be a good starting point… > > > > > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get > pretty > > > > > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta > > states, > > > > but > > > > > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I > do > > > see > > > > > an obscure connection.
Response:
Does anyone know if steady research is done on illnesses like OCD? I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be found? I like to keep my hope and believe that is true. My uncle is a homosexual and was diagnosed years ago with AIDS. We thought we would lose him but they did come out with new medications and he’s in great health as we speak. I like to keep hope because of that alone. If they know there’s a chemical imbalance, or some kind of link between brain chemicals, etc, then they have to be on the right track !!!!!!!!! But does anyone know, or has anyone heard of any in depth research? We have to hope so !!!!!!!!!! The more I live with this the more I hope…. have to keep the hope alive !!
Response:
"I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be found?" To the best of my knowledge, there is no possibility for other kind of treatment invention .. Apart from surgery, of course, but this is entirely different question .. One can hope for new meds, but … I would urge you to take advantage of existing methods .. What if nothing is invented during the next 50 years? And how long would you be able to wait? 20 years? It’s sad, but there will be no miracle .. We have to cope with ocd on a daily basis …
Response:
In my humble opinion, there is no need to look for new treatment, the complete solution is already there, inside yourself. In my experience (also as a software developer), OCD is caused by the wrong positive feedback at the wrong place and the wrong time. As you know, positive feedback is a self inforcing mechanism. This means that the slightest ‘noise’ may spiral down very rapidly into the OCD "dragon" state (the same mechanism like in self organizing systems (see my previous post)). The good news is that you can escape from the OCD dragon state using a similar mechanism that has put you in it, however this time a positive feedback into the upwards spiral using a sound epistemology and a little bit of psychology. I developed for myself some powerful entries into the upwards spiral and these seem to be very effective so far. I don’t believe that OCD is caused by a chemical unbalance, it is caused by wrong thinking/emotional/behavior patterns and of course, these cause a change in the brain chemistry. Using a computer metaphor, when one of my computer programs fail, I can measure different electrical signals in the electronic circuits, but these are the result of the software bug. So, instead of patching the electronics, I will fix the software bug which is the real problem and then the electronic signals will normalize automatically. The chemical unbalance myth is very dangerous because this can make people believe that OCD should be cured solely with chemicals (which is exactly what SSRI manufactures want), and it convinces people that they are helpless by themselves. I can believe that in very rare cases these medicines may help to escape from the OCD dragon state, but afterwards the real remedy is inside yourself, you have all resources available to fight it and more important, to prevent it… "Hermi" <he…@no-spam.symboliczna.net> wrote in message
news:bfbbu6$p19$1@news.lublin.pl… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be > found?" > To the best of my knowledge, there is no possibility for other kind of > treatment invention .. Apart from surgery, of course, but this is entirely > different question .. One can hope for new meds, but … > I would urge you to take advantage of existing methods .. What if nothing is > invented during the next 50 years? And how long would you be able to wait? > 20 years? It’s sad, but there will be no miracle .. We have to cope with ocd > on a daily basis …
Response:
At least it will give some interesting background information. I’m not sure whether it discusses specifically the OCD dragon state. You can always try to mail the author for advise on books about OCD treatment. I have to remark that playing with "meta states" may be dangerous if done alone without good knowledge. For that reason, professional assistance may be advisable. As you noticed already, the "meta-state" theory is also based on a Cognitive Behaviour Model, with a slightly different accent than CBT. If you are interested in "meta state" assistance, you can find contact info at the homepage: http://www.neurosemantics.com . I must say however, that I don’t have any experience with these guys, but it can’t harm to send them a mail or give them a ring… "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfmt03$ado$1@news1.mountaincable.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Ikke, do you think "Dragon Slaying" is well worth buying? > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > news:RNBTa.28740$F92.3102@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > Hi Thinker, > > I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick > answer: > > It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting info > > to start with. > > Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an explanation of > > OCD in order to find a solution > > Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and the > > negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive > > downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens in > some > > way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational > judgement > > in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds absurd, > > but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of > > anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own > fear > > = panic) . > > Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as follows > > (this is my opinion): > > Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety > mechanism > > that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency it > > occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a > dangerous > > event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking is > used > > by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. So > > this is a very important mechanism to survive. > > Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect about > past > > experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the reflexion > > (imaginary) and the real event. > > So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime we > > think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect > about > > it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this > > feedback spirals down into a real obsession. > > This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. > > To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting book > > (I didn’t read it myself): > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm > > Ikke > > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > > news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my own > > > > coping patterns: > > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > > > This might be a good starting point… > > > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get pretty > > > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta states, > > but > > > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I do > see > > > an obscure connection.
Response:
Hi Thinker, I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick answer: It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting info to start with. Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an explanation of OCD in order to find a solution Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and the negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens in some way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational judgement in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds absurd, but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own fear = panic) . Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as follows (this is my opinion): Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety mechanism that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency it occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a dangerous event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking is used by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. So this is a very important mechanism to survive. Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect about past experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the reflexion (imaginary) and the real event. So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime we think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect about it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this feedback spirals down into a real obsession. This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting book (I didn’t read it myself): http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm Ikke "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my own > > coping patterns: > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > This might be a good starting point… > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get pretty > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta states, but > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I do see > an obscure connection.
Response:
Hi Ikke, do you think "Dragon Slaying" is well worth buying? "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message
news:RNBTa.28740$F92.3102@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Thinker, > I have not that much time to reply now, but here is already a quick answer: > It is the "MetaStates.htm" article that contains the most interesting info > to start with. > Before looking for a solution, one should first look for an explanation of > OCD in order to find a solution > Now, if you read again the paragraph concerning the dragon states and the > negative thoughts/feelings against yourself, you notice the recursive > downwards spiral (the wrong positive feedback). This is what happens in some > way at people with OCD: bottom line, they doubt their own rational judgement > in some direct or indirect way (for example: I now that it sounds absurd, > but what if … etc). Additionally, this is amplified by feelings of > anxiety about the thing they obsess, but sometimes they fear their own fear > = panic) . > Another downwards spiral (wrong positive feedback loop) works as follows > (this is my opinion): > Human beings (and animals as well I think), have a build-in safety mechanism > that increases the importance of an event in function of the frequency it > occurs and the intensity of the emotions on that event. The more a dangerous > event happens, the higher on the internal ranking list. This ranking is used > by our unconscience to generate fear and to develop escape strategies. So > this is a very important mechanism to survive. > Now the problem: different from animals, human beings can reflect about past > experiences but the unconsience doesn’t distinquish between the reflexion > (imaginary) and the real event. > So, even when imagined, the event will become more important everytime we > think about it. And because the importance increases, we will reflect about > it even more and so on. This is called "positive feedback", and this > feedback spirals down into a real obsession. > This is an example of a metastate as described in the article. > To conclude for now, I add some extra URL to a (possible) interesting book > (I didn’t read it myself): > http://www.neurosemantics.com/Books/DragonSlaying.htm > Ikke > "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message > news:bfm7hl$qvs$1@news1.mountaincable.net… > > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > > news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my own > > > coping patterns: > > > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > > > This might be a good starting point… > > Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get pretty > > complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta states, > but > > more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I do see > > an obscure connection.
Response:
"ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message
news:g3iTa.27127$F92.3207@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my own > coping patterns: > http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm > This might be a good starting point…
Ikke, I have read the articles in the link above. It could get pretty complicated. I do think I know what they mean when they say meta states, but more insight is needed how this could be applied to OCD. Although I do see an obscure connection.
Response:
Thanks for the information. And yes, I would like to read more about the method. BTW one of my obsessions among many is with dirt and germs. Being a Nurse, makes it worse. Thanks again Deli
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- However, like I pointed out in my last mail, I’m no doctor, however, coming from another discipline, I might have a refreshing complementary viewpoint. Ikke, if examine history, we will find that most discovery breakthroughs were discovered by people who did not specialise in that perticular discipline. For example, Albert Einstein was not a physicist, he was a mathematician. The incredible points mentioned in the book "Psychocybernetics" by Maxwell Maltz, he was a plastic surgeon, not a psychiatrist. And the people who truly dicovered how the mind works, were not psycholigists or Doctors, they were physicists who at one time did research on cybernetics. So, having said all this, if you would be able to share your information, I’m shure people here would truly appreciate it, as for me, it’s been a bad week for me and this damn OCD.
Response:
> There are millions suffering from OCD.Always remember, you > are not alone. > Good luck > Deli > http://www.ocfoundation.org/ ((sometimes slow to load))
Thank you very much for your support !!!!! And thank you for the link. Also, Ikke, if it’s not too much trouble we would love to hear more about your methods and all you have learned. You give more hope to us all !! Paul
Response:
OK, recently, I found something on the web that comes close to my own coping patterns: http://www.neurosemantics.com/MetaStates.htm This might be a good starting point… "Deli" <DELI…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13663-3F1D0BD9-354@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the information. And yes, I would like to read more about the > method. > BTW one of my obsessions among many is with dirt and germs. > Being a Nurse, makes it worse. > Thanks again > Deli
Response:
Please, go ahead However, like I pointed out in my last mail, I’m no doctor, however, coming from another discipline, I might have a refreshing complementary viewpoint. Also, different from most therapists, I have the big advantage that I really, really *know* what we are dealing with since I experienced it all myself: I was diagnosed with OCD, remember :-) Now, concerning my coping patterns, one should be aware that these are designed for myself by myself, and that might also be the difference between a generic method like CBT from a book and mine. Maybe, the *big* contribution of a therapist is that he/she will assist you in customizing the generic CBT to your personality, with your background and your problem. That is also the reason that I probably can’t explain my ‘method’ in a plain text without interaction with my public. It could be dangerous as well because something maybe completely misunderstood and this may lead to worsening of the problem. So, I think that CBT, assisted and customized by a good therapist, will lead to the same results like I have! The most important thing is, that you should really believe in the method and in your own power, and there is more than sufficient evidence that you should! If you still feel that I should elaborate on my method, please let me know. In the mean time, I will think about other ways how to communicate my experiences… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Deli" <DELI…@webtv.net> wrote in message news:1949-3F1CB1C9-338@storefull-2294.public.lawson.webtv.net… > Sorry, I should have typed your name > As I said before, I am very interested in the "Method" you > refer to. > As Thinker says posting any information related to helping us get rid of > these demons will be God’send’ > I have always felt that the study of Mental Illness is still > somewhat in the Dark Ages, IMHO. > Pharmaceutical Companies and their new SSRI"s constantly flooding > the market. > One favor, I would love to copy your first post about this subject > (Research) and share it with friends that suffer from OCD and do not > have access to the Internet. I would also like to share it with my > Primary Care Physician. > All these with your permission and giving you credit for it. > Please respond with your point of view. > Thanks > Deli
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Ikke, I would love for you to make your plan available to the rest of us, you could be literally saving a lot of people from unnecessary misery. "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message
news:LNiSa.21476$F92.2303@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In my humble opinion, there is no need to look for new treatment, the > complete solution is already there, inside yourself. In my experience (also > as a software developer), OCD is caused by the wrong positive feedback at > the wrong place and the wrong time. As you know, positive feedback is a self > inforcing mechanism. This means that the slightest ‘noise’ may spiral down > very rapidly into the OCD "dragon" state (the same mechanism like in self > organizing systems (see my previous post)). > The good news is that you can escape from the OCD dragon state using a > similar mechanism that has put you in it, however this time a positive > feedback into the upwards spiral using a sound epistemology and a little > bit of psychology. I developed for myself some powerful entries into the > upwards spiral and these seem to be very effective so far. > I don’t believe that OCD is caused by a chemical unbalance, it is caused by > wrong thinking/emotional/behavior patterns and of course, these cause a > change in the brain chemistry. Using a computer metaphor, when one of my > computer programs fail, I can measure different electrical signals in the > electronic circuits, but these are the result of the software bug. So, > instead of patching the electronics, I will fix the software bug which is > the real problem and then the electronic signals will normalize > automatically. > The chemical unbalance myth is very dangerous because this can make people > believe that OCD should be cured solely with chemicals (which is exactly > what SSRI manufactures want), and it convinces people that they are helpless > by themselves. I can believe that in very rare cases these medicines may > help to escape from the OCD dragon state, but afterwards the real remedy is > inside yourself, you have all resources available to fight it and more > important, to prevent it… > "Hermi" <he…@no-spam.symboliczna.net> wrote in message > news:bfbbu6$p19$1@news.lublin.pl… > > "I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be > > found?" > > To the best of my knowledge, there is no possibility for other kind of > > treatment invention .. Apart from surgery, of course, but this is entirely > > different question .. One can hope for new meds, but … > > I would urge you to take advantage of existing methods .. What if nothing > is > > invented during the next 50 years? And how long would you be able to wait? > > 20 years? It’s sad, but there will be no miracle .. We have to cope with > ocd > > on a daily basis …
Response:
Sorry, I should have typed your name As I said before, I am very interested in the "Method" you refer to. As Thinker says posting any information related to helping us get rid of these demons will be God’send’ I have always felt that the study of Mental Illness is still somewhat in the Dark Ages, IMHO. Pharmaceutical Companies and their new SSRI"s constantly flooding the market. One favor, I would love to copy your first post about this subject (Research) and share it with friends that suffer from OCD and do not have access to the Internet. I would also like to share it with my Primary Care Physician. All these with your permission and giving you credit for it. Please respond with your point of view. Thanks Deli
Response:
I’m not sure whether you reply on my message, but I was indeed diagnosed with OCD (O type)and panic attacks. I was never treated with CBT or medication (except for one week prozac that increased my panic so much that I will never go on SSRI’s again!). Anyway, as I stated before, I’m a software programmer with special interest in artificial intelligence an self organizing systems. This, combined with my interest in philosophy (epistemology) , enabled me to develop my own coping patterns which are so effective that OCD and panic attacks completely vanished. Later on, while reading this list from time to time, I noticed that my method is not so different from CBT as you think and my explanation about the origin of OCD is more or less in line with the official one (I only explained it in software terminology). As I said before, it is too much to write my method down in a few lines, but one of my simple coping patterns is that when OCD tries to influence my rational thinking, I just take distance from the problem by looking at it as just a software problem that has nothing to do with my personal life. By doing that, I solve the problem without disturbing (OCD) emotions and only then I project that solution into my life again (dissociation in psychology ?). The self organizing system theory is very well applicable in psychology to understand and solve all kind off anxiety disorders. If somebody is interested, I could try to find some URL’s on the web… "Deli" <DELI…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13666-3F1C12E2-6@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi > Do you by any chance suffer from OCD? > And if so, how does your point of view help you to control the > obsessions, compulsions, anxiety and depression attacks ???? > I have suffered from OCD for many years, have read a lot about it but, > never have read about what you state in your post. Interesting, to say > the least. > Best wishes > Deli
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Good morning Paul For what I have read, yes, there are constant researches on OCD and other Mental Illnesses. I am a ret Registered Nurse and worked at a State Mental hospital in Columbus Ohio. I wonder how many patients suffering from OCD were treated for something else. OCD was unknown then. There are many Universities that through their Psychiatric Courses are doing a lot of research on Mental Health. Here is the site for OCD Foundation. Though them you can find the different Colleges and Hospitals doing the research Also, you can try "Google Search" There are millions suffering from OCD.Always remember, you are not alone. Good luck Deli http://www.ocfoundation.org/ ((sometimes slow to load))
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Hi Do you by any chance suffer from OCD? And if so, how does your point of view help you to control the obsessions, compulsions, anxiety and depression attacks ???? I have suffered from OCD for many years, have read a lot about it but, never have read about what you state in your post. Interesting, to say the least. Best wishes Deli
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Hi Paul, Back in 1988 or 1989 I saw Dr. Jenike at Mass General Hospital in Boston at the OCD clinic. At that time I took part in a study where I took Anafranil when it was first being used on OCD patients. I just found this link http://www.mgh.harvard.edu/allpsych/PsychNeuro/PsychNeuro_ocd_aboutOC… about the OCD Clinic. Lisa "Paul" <arcbi…@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:2d8bc543.0307181243.206de029@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Does anyone know if steady research is done on illnesses like OCD? I > mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be > found?
Response:
> Hi Paul, > Back in 1988 or 1989 I saw Dr. Jenike at Mass General Hospital in Boston at > the OCD clinic. At that time I took part in a study where I took Anafranil > when it was first being used on OCD patients. I just found this link > http://www.mgh.harvard.edu/allpsych/PsychNeuro/PsychNeuro_ocd_aboutOC… > about the OCD Clinic. > Lisa
Hi Lisa, Thanks for the information. I’m going to check out that link. Personally, i know I have OCD and have been diagnosed with it. But sometimes when the OCD doesn’t seem to be at play i can just feel panic-like and nervous and very scared. A feeling that is very difficult to shake. Could be right out of the blue. While walking outside or coming out of Church. I don’t know for sure if THAT is ocd. That feeling later on can manifest into unpleasant thoughts and fears, but the original sensation sometimes is not an obsession. So I tend to think that any kind of panic/anxiety disorder can definately be associated with ocd, and can work hand in hand. Which leads me to my current POV: no one’s life is perfect, we all know that. but we also all want something, we all want our lives to go a certain way. we all sometimes have something that bothers us. i’m working now to prove my theory that if you figure out what scares you; figure out what bothers you.. that could be half the battle.. i know there are things i fear.. i have some personal problems that bother me…. i need to work at those..i need to come to terms and figure out what i want in my life. in my opinion, if you can come to a point where you accept certain things, and change what you can, the ocd may be affected…. be it easier to cope with, etc…. what i’ve found helps me most is to talk about it… be it a therapist, friends, family, etc……….. get it out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we feel alone, i know it…. but we’re not.. this is our life battle… and the more i live with it the more i think it can be defeated !!!!! sorry for the rambling………. just trying to keep it real and positive !!
Response:
Very, very interesting. You said something about you "entered some entries into the upward spiral", would you be able to elaborate? Whatever works for you, maybe the rest of us would love to try and see if we can put the beast to rest. "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message
news:LNiSa.21476$F92.2303@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In my humble opinion, there is no need to look for new treatment, the > complete solution is already there, inside yourself. In my experience (also > as a software developer), OCD is caused by the wrong positive feedback at > the wrong place and the wrong time. As you know, positive feedback is a self > inforcing mechanism. This means that the slightest ‘noise’ may spiral down > very rapidly into the OCD "dragon" state (the same mechanism like in self > organizing systems (see my previous post)). > The good news is that you can escape from the OCD dragon state using a > similar mechanism that has put you in it, however this time a positive > feedback into the upwards spiral using a sound epistemology and a little > bit of psychology. I developed for myself some powerful entries into the > upwards spiral and these seem to be very effective so far. > I don’t believe that OCD is caused by a chemical unbalance, it is caused by > wrong thinking/emotional/behavior patterns and of course, these cause a > change in the brain chemistry. Using a computer metaphor, when one of my > computer programs fail, I can measure different electrical signals in the > electronic circuits, but these are the result of the software bug. So, > instead of patching the electronics, I will fix the software bug which is > the real problem and then the electronic signals will normalize > automatically. > The chemical unbalance myth is very dangerous because this can make people > believe that OCD should be cured solely with chemicals (which is exactly > what SSRI manufactures want), and it convinces people that they are helpless > by themselves. I can believe that in very rare cases these medicines may > help to escape from the OCD dragon state, but afterwards the real remedy is > inside yourself, you have all resources available to fight it and more > important, to prevent it… > "Hermi" <he…@no-spam.symboliczna.net> wrote in message > news:bfbbu6$p19$1@news.lublin.pl… > > "I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be > > found?" > > To the best of my knowledge, there is no possibility for other kind of > > treatment invention .. Apart from surgery, of course, but this is entirely > > different question .. One can hope for new meds, but … > > I would urge you to take advantage of existing methods .. What if nothing > is > > invented during the next 50 years? And how long would you be able to wait? > > 20 years? It’s sad, but there will be no miracle .. We have to cope with > ocd > > on a daily basis …
Response:
I bundeled my coping patterns in a 10 pages document, but unfortunately, in my native language (Dutch). It’s intended as a summary for myself without the complete context for full understanding (that would fill a complete book I guess). Nevertheless, if you are really interested, I will think about a translation in a newsgroup friendly format… "thinker" <noem…@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:bfe441$gee$1@news1.mountaincable.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Very, very interesting. You said something about you "entered some entries > into the upward spiral", would you be able to elaborate? Whatever works for > you, maybe the rest of us would love to try and see if we can put the beast > to rest. > "ikke" <i…@pondaro.nl> wrote in message > news:LNiSa.21476$F92.2303@afrodite.telenet-ops.be… > > In my humble opinion, there is no need to look for new treatment, the > > complete solution is already there, inside yourself. In my experience > (also > > as a software developer), OCD is caused by the wrong positive feedback at > > the wrong place and the wrong time. As you know, positive feedback is a > self > > inforcing mechanism. This means that the slightest ‘noise’ may spiral down > > very rapidly into the OCD "dragon" state (the same mechanism like in > self > > organizing systems (see my previous post)). > > The good news is that you can escape from the OCD dragon state using a > > similar mechanism that has put you in it, however this time a positive > > feedback into the upwards spiral using a sound epistemology and a little > > bit of psychology. I developed for myself some powerful entries into the > > upwards spiral and these seem to be very effective so far. > > I don’t believe that OCD is caused by a chemical unbalance, it is caused > by > > wrong thinking/emotional/behavior patterns and of course, these cause a > > change in the brain chemistry. Using a computer metaphor, when one of my > > computer programs fail, I can measure different electrical signals in the > > electronic circuits, but these are the result of the software bug. So, > > instead of patching the electronics, I will fix the software bug which is > > the real problem and then the electronic signals will normalize > > automatically. > > The chemical unbalance myth is very dangerous because this can make people > > believe that OCD should be cured solely with chemicals (which is exactly > > what SSRI manufactures want), and it convinces people that they are > helpless > > by themselves. I can believe that in very rare cases these medicines may > > help to escape from the OCD dragon state, but afterwards the real remedy > is > > inside yourself, you have all resources available to fight it and more > > important, to prevent it… > > "Hermi" <he…@no-spam.symboliczna.net> wrote in message > > news:bfbbu6$p19$1@news.lublin.pl… > > > "I mean is there reason to hope that new meds, or even a "Cure" may be > > > found?" > > > To the best of my knowledge, there is no possibility for other kind of > > > treatment invention .. Apart from surgery, of course, but this is > entirely > > > different question .. One can hope for new meds, but … > > > I would urge you to take advantage of existing methods .. What if > nothing > > is > > > invented during the next 50 years? And how long would you be able to > wait? > > > 20 years? It’s sad, but there will be no miracle .. We have to cope with > > ocd > > > on a daily basis …
Response:
> In my humble opinion, there is no need to look for new treatment, the > complete solution is already there, inside yourself. In my experience (also > as a software developer), OCD is caused by the wrong positive feedback at > the wrong place and the wrong time. As you know, positive feedback is a self > inforcing mechanism. This means that the slightest ‘noise’ may spiral down > very rapidly into the OCD "dragon" state (the same mechanism like in self > organizing systems (see my previous post)). > The good news is that you can escape from the OCD dragon state using a > similar mechanism that has put you in it, however this time a positive > feedback into the upwards spiral using a sound epistemology and a little > bit of psychology. I developed for myself some powerful entries into the > upwards spiral and these seem to be very effective so far.
Well your humble opinion sure does sit well with me. I’d much rather that be the case. Sometimes it feels like deep down there somewhere I have the power to control it, or at least manage it. Meds help, but if you’re opinion is anywhere close to fact, then we all have the power to overcome this.
