A travesty…..:-(
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Fenisz wrote: > I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that > comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On > occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of > pain. > This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something > that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio > in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s > helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. > Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent > felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt > storm out in disgust. > After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother > anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well > whom knows. > I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of > the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a > hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because > every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely > (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was > disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away > from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. > Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form > this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats > commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did > absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a > hand gesture!!!!!!! > Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do > nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it > should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what > happened. 
> At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and > asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced > parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. > The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be > appreciated > >Chaim > Whenever I walk into a church, I always check if there is an area where > parents can sit to with their children and not dusturb others. Many > larger churches provide an area enclosed by glass so the can both see and > hear the service and not disturb others with their children. This > enclosure would be helpful for Touretters and others that cannot control > noises. I have heard from a reliable source that a young man with TS was > asked not to come to services in a Mormon Church because he would yell out > F..k during the service. An enclosure would have served him well.
Chaim, NO, I don’t think you are overreacting. To me this was just a case of incredible insensitivity. I’m not jewish but I hope to hell that you DO send a letter to all of the jewish papers detailing this incident. This is a good example of why I don’t attend any church anywhere of any faith. I have been subjected to all kinds of indirect insensitivity’s similar to this one too. I have seen too many hypocrits. It’s true that I should not let this determine whether I go to church or not but I just cannot stand a hypocrit, PERIOD!!!!! Mark
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -DCFields wrote: > Explanations that sound like excuses for > something they don’t truly have a logical answer for. The question I > have asked is, if there really is this supreme being that everyone calls > GOD and he is as kind as everyone says he is then why would he either > allow or put a child into a situation that borders on almost total > hopelessness. > Mark, > I like the fact that we are discussing whether or not there is a God, and > if there is a God why he gives children TS. This topic will take the > focus off whether or not it is appropriate to use a medical pass at Disney > World. > Regards, Diane in CT
Oh my, I think personal beliefs in God sould be set aside, and look at the behavior of the elders of the church, a place where all who wish to worship should be welcome. I am not interested in debating my thoughtds on god, okay, just that I think/thought it rather odd that people in a church would ask ANYONE TO LEAVE!!! as a side bar, I am wondering what you ment by your Walt Disney World comment. As a member of Give Kids the World, I think what Disney World and GKTW does is great. Well, let me get off my soap box here. Ed
Response:
I don’t blame you for being upset. People come to worship and maybe seek solace and should not be turned away especially when they are biologically unable to be silent at the (usually) appropriate times. The congregation – and especially the rabbi’s brother – need to be enlightened as to the deeper purpose of a place of worship. It was a stellar opportunity for them to teach and practice their spiritual principles and they let that man – and, by extension, their congregation – down badly. I think I would consider changing synagogues as well to one with a more practical spiritually based leadership. Kathy
Response:
"Kathy Sanderson" <aar…@spectranet.ca> wrote: >Fabulous! Another Cayce fan! I discovered him decades ago and his >philosophy also is so logical that I have done little struggling with the >Why does God allow this to happen? question because it’s all so logical. >You’re braver than I though because I never explain this to except to a few >close friends. Everyone else thinks I’m nuts even though they don’t notice >that I don’t struggle with these philosophical questions as much as they >do. I don’t want to sound superior to anyone, just satisfied that my >questions have an answer (for me, anyway).
Kathy, it’s not bravery on my part…it’s the realization that there are a lot of "us" out there who "don’t go public" for the very reasons you suggest. I don’t do it as often as you might think, either….but there are times, and the relative "safety" (misguided, i know) of cyberspace is seductive. I’m amazed at how often over the years I’ve run into people of all traditional faiths who have a bit of Reincarnationist philosophy running in their veins. Not the least of which was a Methodist minister with whom I was acquainted some years ago…..listening to his sermon’s was a revelation….he saw the scriptures as metaphors…..in an Eastern way… The logic appeals to me…..and the fact that all religious faiths can be true to their philosophy AND embrace this particular philosophy as well… .there is no conflict…..it’s all encompassing. Oh well…..a bit off topic lately…so what ELSE is new, KAT?…sigh.. >Any ideas or am I, indeed, a mild misfit or worrying too much? >Kathy
Welcome aboard, Kathy…..you’re not a misfit…..not in my book….you fit right in here!! 
KAT in CT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Kathy Sanderson wrote: > Fabulous! Another Cayce fan! I discovered him decades ago and his > philosophy also is so logical that I have done little struggling with the > Why does God allow this to happen? question because it’s all so logical.
Who the hell is Cayce? > You’re braver than I though because I never explain this to except to a few > close friends. Everyone else thinks I’m nuts even though they don’t notice > that I don’t struggle with these philosophical questions as much as they > do. I don’t want to sound superior to anyone, just satisfied that my > questions have an answer (for me, anyway).
Trust me. There is a logical answer for any and all questions. We may not at the time know the answer, but it does exist. We just need to keep looking. > I’m new to this group. My 13-year-old was diagnosed borderline ADD and TS > about a year ago and I suspect he gets it from me. When I read the post > about how annoyed he got when his mother was trying to direct his supper > and where his mind really was, etc. I had to chuckle. That surely sounds > like me.
My cousins think I’m scatterbrained and one’s wife is cold to me > right now because I suspect I forgot her child’s name last June!
Did you ever stop to think that they think of you as scatterbrained because they may not have the intellectual capability to understand your train of thought. This is not a sign of you being scatterbrained. It just means that you are far above them in intelligence. Does this make sense to you? At any > rate, no one’s enlightening me. Has anyone here had difficulty with social > skills? Specifically, all of a sudden, people become distant and for the > life of you you can’t understand why? This is becoming a real problem for > me and I think it’s because I’m blurting stuff out that doesn’t seem > intrusive or illogical to me although I have learned a lot over the last > few decades about what is considered as so. Is this TS?
Kathy, I don’t even have to know you to know what is going on based upon what you said. I have the same problem. It is called impulsivity. I started doing this (blurting out stuff) when I was about 10. As I got older it just got worse. I never could understand why people would look at me funny after I said something. I now realize what was going on. The tourettic mind tends to run considerably faster than the normal mind. When you would say something it is because you are already anticipating where the conversation is going. Sometimes you are right and other times you are wrong. If you are right it intimidates the hell out of the other people even though they probably don’t realize it at the time. When people get intimadated they become scared and tend to pull away. This is a self defense mechanism. When you are wrong it seems like your comments are from left field somewhere and are totally out of context. This tends to irratate people because they think you are being a smartass or you are just completely stupid. Either way, you lose. The sad fact is that you are more than likely considerably more intelligent than 99% of the people you meet. My IQ is 132. This puts me into the top 1/2 of 1% of the people in this country. It also makes it very difficult to relate to people with average intelligence. The average IQ of the average John Doe on the street is somewhere between 95 and 98. I now realize this is one of the major reasons why as a kid I always got along better with educated adults. The people in my peer group were afraid (figureatively) of me even though none of us realized it at the time. I always intimidated the hell out of them even though I never actively tried to. It’s the same principle as the beautiful blonde with brains. She is somewhat expected to be dumb. When she shows her intelligence and proves that she is very smart it scares the hell out of everybody. I hope this helps to explain some of what is going on. > Hope this isn’t too basic to answer but there’s something definitely > different about me and since my son was diagnosed and I’ve learned some of > the milder symptoms as well as the idea it could be inherited, I’ve been > struggling for an answer to this one. Doctor won’t diagnose me as "adults > have learned to cope and it’s too difficult to diagnose" and once a child > is diagnosed, suddenly parents wonder if they have it (the idea being we’re > hypochondriacal I guess).
If this is what you’re doctor is telling you then you need to find a different doctor. This one damn sure isn’t doing you any favors. Any ideas or am I, indeed, a mild misfit or worrying too much? No Kathy, you’re not a misfit. You just have a symptom that causes you to do things that other people don’t understand. This same symptom cause me to be fired from over 200 jobs before I went onto SS disability in Dec. 92. My doctor put me on tegretol to help control my impulsivity. It has worked quite well as a matter of fact. Nothing will completely stop it but it will make life a lot easier to tolerate. I hope all of this helps. Mark
Response:
>I would be interested in seeing anything that MIGHT give me some firm >proof.
Well, Mark, I don’t know about FIRM PROOF, but it’s pretty good LOGIC, anyway. Pick up a copy of the book LifeCycles, Reincarnation and The Web of Life by Christopher M. Bache, PhD. He’s a professor in the Dept. of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Youngstown State University, and multiply degreed. Answers lots of the questions that de-bunkers (and former de-bunkers like me) used to ask. But everytime someone tells me that I >ask for firm proof. As yet no one has provided it. I’m still waiting.
And you may, sigh….continue to have to Mark, if FIRM PROOF is what you need. All I can say is this…..keep an open mind, and let your heart be your guide. Most "science" starts with "logic" and some of it ENDS with logic as well……"proof" is not an easy commodity to come by with some things. The only "proof" in this topic might be found in the near death experiences by some, but even that doesn’t qualify, scientifically, as "proof." So,if you require the ability to "go there" and come back yourself, consciously, and without doubt, even Bache’s book ain’t gonna’ help you! And that’s where "faith" comes in….a belief system that "works" for you, whatever it may be. >Believe it or not KAT I really would like to believe.
I know that. I felt precisely the same way. My good fortune was in finding answers that worked for me so relatively early in life. I was 25. You’ve had a much longer "row to hoe" than did I. We as humans >have the bad habit of inventing reasons for things that we just don’t >understand. That does not mean that an answer does not exist, it just >means that at that point in time we don’t know what the answer is. Does >my line of logic make any sense to anyone but me?
Makes PERFECT sense to me. For even as I rest easy in my particular "belief system," I have to face the fact that Homo sapiens does, indeed, do precisely what you’ve said. And NOBODY really knows, for certain, until "after" and I ain’t been there yet….at least, not in THIS lifetime "-)) So, I console myself in "science" again…..and let it bolster my "faith" in the spiritual in this way. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only converted. The "energy" of life is recordable…we "emit." When the corporeal self "dies," that "energy" has GOT to go somewhere…..
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kathryn Taubert wrote: > >I would be interested in seeing anything that MIGHT give me some firm > >proof. > Well, Mark, I don’t know about FIRM PROOF, but it’s pretty good LOGIC, > anyway. Pick up a copy of the book > LifeCycles, Reincarnation and The Web of Life > by Christopher M. Bache, PhD. He’s a professor in the Dept. of > Philosophy and Religious Studies at Youngstown State University, and > multiply degreed. > Answers lots of the questions that de-bunkers (and former de-bunkers like > me) used to ask. > But everytime someone tells me that I > >ask for firm proof. As yet no one has provided it. I’m still waiting. > And you may, sigh….continue to have to Mark, if FIRM PROOF is what you > need. All I can say is this…..keep an open mind, and let your heart be > your guide. Most "science" starts with "logic" and some of it ENDS with > logic as well……"proof" is not an easy commodity to come by with some > things. The only "proof" in this topic might be found in the near death > experiences by some, but even that doesn’t qualify, scientifically, as > "proof." > So,if you require the ability to "go there" and come back yourself, > consciously, and without doubt, even Bache’s book ain’t gonna’ help you! > And that’s where "faith" comes in….a belief system that "works" for you, > whatever it may be. > >Believe it or not KAT I really would like to believe. > I know that. I felt precisely the same way. My good fortune was in > finding answers that worked for me so relatively early in life. I was 25. > You’ve had a much longer "row to hoe" than did I. > We as humans > >have the bad habit of inventing reasons for things that we just don’t > >understand. That does not mean that an answer does not exist, it just > >means that at that point in time we don’t know what the answer is. Does > >my line of logic make any sense to anyone but me? > Makes PERFECT sense to me. For even as I rest easy in my particular > "belief system," I have to face the fact that Homo sapiens does, indeed, > do precisely what you’ve said. And NOBODY really knows, for certain, > until "after" and I ain’t been there yet….at least, not in THIS > lifetime "-)) > So, I console myself in "science" again…..and let it bolster my "faith" > in the spiritual in this way. > Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, only converted. The "energy" of > life is recordable…we "emit." > When the corporeal self "dies," that "energy" has GOT to go somewhere…..
KAT, I agree with you that the energy has got to go somewhere, but where? When I said that I need firm proof I guess that I should have explained myself a little more. I don’t necessarily need scientific proof. I just need something that makes logical sense to me. I do feel that I have an open mind. I’m not willing to say that, "No, God does not exist, period." But on the other hand I’m not willing to say that, "Yes, he does exist." I’m basically looking for some type of validation that I feel comfortable with. Because of the things that I have been through it is VERY difficult for me to just have faith and believe. Does this make sense? My first wife used to get so mad at me because she said that I was too logical, too black and white, too cut and dried. Maybe I am. But to this point in my life it is the only thing that has kept me alive. But you can rest assured, I do have an open mind. I’m just not willing to believe anything that I am told without checking it out for myself. Like my mother used to tell me, " Mark, you are the flower of the family. A blooming idiot, not a damned fool." KAT, I may be a little crazy sometimes but I ain’t stupid either. Mark
Response:
Kathy Sanderson wrote: > Fabulous! Another Cayce fan! I discovered him decades ago and his > philosophy also is so logical that I have done little struggling with the > Why does God allow this to happen? question because it’s all so logical.
Who the hell is Cayce? > You’re braver than I though because I never explain this to except to a few > close friends. Everyone else thinks I’m nuts even though they don’t notice > that I don’t struggle with these philosophical questions as much as they > do. I don’t want to sound superior to anyone, just satisfied that my > questions have an answer (for me, anyway).
Trust me. There is a logical answer for any and all questions. We may not at the time know the answer, but it does exist. We just need to keep looking. > I’m new to this group. My 13-year-old was diagnosed borderline ADD and TS > about a year ago and I suspect he gets it from me. When I read the post > about how annoyed he got when his mother was trying to direct his supper > and where his mind really was, etc. I had to chuckle. That surely sounds > like me.
My cousins think I’m scatterbrained and one’s wife is cold to me > right now because I suspect I forgot her child’s name last June!
Did you ever stop to think that they think of you as scatterbrained because they may not have the intellectual capability to understand your train of thought. This is not a sign of you being scatterbrained. It just means that you are far above them in intelligence. Does this make sense to you? At any > rate, no one’s enlightening me. Has anyone here had difficulty with social > skills? Specifically, all of a sudden, people become distant and for the > life of you you can’t understand why? This is becoming a real problem for > me and I think it’s because I’m blurting stuff out that doesn’t seem > intrusive or illogical to me although I have learned a lot over the last > few decades about what is considered as so. Is this TS?
Kathy, I don’t even have to know you to know what is going on based upon what you said. I have the same problem. It is called impulsivity. I started doing this (blurting out stuff) when I was about 10. As I got older it just got worse. I never could understand why people would look at me funny after I said something. I now realize what was going on. The tourettic mind tends to run considerably faster than the normal mind. When you would say something it is because you are already anticipating where the conversation is going. Sometimes you are right and other times you are wrong. If you are right it intimidates the hell out of the other people even though they probably don’t realize it at the time. When people get intimadated they become scared and tend to pull away. This is a self defense mechanism. When you are wrong it seems like your comments are from left field somewhere and are totally out of context. This tends to irratate people because they think you are being a smartass or you are just completely stupid. Either way, you lose. The sad fact is that you are more than likely considerably more intelligent than 99% of the people you meet. My IQ is 132. This puts me into the top 1/2 of 1% of the people in this country. It also makes it very difficult for me to relate to people with average intelligence. The average IQ of the average John Doe on the street is somewhere between 95 and 98. I now realize this is one of the major reasons why as a kid I always got along better with educated adults. The people in my peer group were afraid (figureatively) of me even though none of us realized it at the time. I always intimidated the hell out of them even though I never actively tried to. It’s the same principle as the beautiful blonde with brains. She is somewhat expected to be dumb. When she shows her intelligence and proves that she is very smart it scares the hell out of everybody. I hope this helps to explain some of what is going on. > Hope this isn’t too basic to answer but there’s something definitely > different about me and since my son was diagnosed and I’ve learned some of > the milder symptoms as well as the idea it could be inherited, I’ve been > struggling for an answer to this one. Doctor won’t diagnose me as "adults > have learned to cope and it’s too difficult to diagnose" and once a child > is diagnosed, suddenly parents wonder if they have it (the idea being we’re > hypochondriacal I guess).
If this is what you’re doctor is telling you then you need to find a different doctor. This one damn sure isn’t doing you any favors. Any ideas or am I, indeed, a mild misfit or worrying too much? No Kathy, you’re not a misfit. You just have a symptom that causes you to do things that other people don’t understand. This same symptom cause me to be fired from over 200 jobs before I went onto SS disability in Dec. 92. My doctor put me on tegretol to help control my impulsivity. It has worked quite well as a matter of fact. Nothing will completely stop it but it will make life a lot easier to tolerate. I hope all of this helps. Mark
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chaim Shapiro wrote: > I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that > comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On > occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of > pain. > This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something > that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio > in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s > helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. > Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent > felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt > storm out in disgust. > After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother > anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well > whom knows. > I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of > the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a > hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because > every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely > (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was > disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away > from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. > Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form > this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats > commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did > absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a > hand gesture!!!!!!! > Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do > nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it > should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what > happened. > At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and > asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced > parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. > The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be > appreciated > Chaim
The actions of your church elders was inexcusable. NO AND I MEAN NO ONE shold be asked to leave a place of worship unless of coarse they are doing somethin obsence. (but this was not). I am upset these kinds of behaviors. I make no bones about letting my opinions known and neither should you. Go get ‘em. Ed
Response:
I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of pain. This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt storm out in disgust. After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well whom knows. I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a hand gesture!!!!!!! Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what happened. At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be appreciated Chaim
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chaim Shapiro (ucsha…@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) writes: > I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that > comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On > occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of > pain. > This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something > that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio > in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s > helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. > Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent > felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt > storm out in disgust. > After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother > anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well > whom knows. > I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of > the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a > hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because > every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely > (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was > disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away > from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. > Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form > this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats > commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did > absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a > hand gesture!!!!!!! > Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do > nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it > should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what > happened. > At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and > asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced > parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. > The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be > appreciated > Chaim
Dear Chaim: No, I don’t think you are over-reacting.I think it’s awful a person can be forced out of a holy place of worship.Everyone should be welcome, with only the exception of those being disrespectful. It reminds me of how different various places of worship can be.For us, we went to a church once where the people were just awful.They made me leave in tears in fact.At the time, we only had 2 kids(now we’re up to 6) and people always gave us dirty looks when we’d enter with the kids(even though the church also teaches birth control is a sin, and we are encouraged to welcome lots of kids and bring them to church!!) and at times I even heard them scowl in disgust as we sat near them,"Oh, no!" One time a man even approached us after and said "Why don’t you leave those kids home where they belong?"(Even though they are good kids; they have been going since birth and learn how to sit still and be quiet; if they ever did disrupt I’d leave with them and go downstairs).Also, a guest priest said we made him "nervous" sitting with the kids in the front pews and asked us to leave and we disturbed his concentration. Needless to say, we didn’t feel welcome there and didn’t stay very long…. Now we’re at a wonderful church where we are welcomed and feel like family(and the people here praise the kids saying how well behaved they are, and even give them little treats!) and once there was a woman who was loudly moaning and groaning, wailing and thrashing and flailing her arms in a franzy in the middle of Mass….but the priest explained she was pocessed by the Holy Spirit and given a special gift and we are not to be afriad.Well, it was frightening to watch(and I don’t really know if I believe it about the pocession; I somehow don’t think God pocessing a person would come across as so disruptive, loud and scary) but she was not reprimanded or asked to leave.Instaed, she was just as welcome as anyone else, and it was explained.There is also a woman there with a medical problem who often makes loud "Whoop!" yelling sounds and snorths, wheezes and grunts loudly as well, and this is distruptive, but she was never forced to leave. I think this is the right attitude; everyone should be welcome, and encouraged! I have found there are good churches, and there are not so good ones.I don’t give up on God or my faith; I just find a new church where I feel comfortable. I am sure you will soon find another place of worship where it will be a different atmosphere and you will feel is right.Good luck! Irina, mother of 6. — ************** IRINA SHOUSHOUNOVA bo693 ******************** Sikuya Indlela Yelizwi Lobomi. We are on the path of the voice of righteousness.(Noyana). ************************************************************
Response:
I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of pain. This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt storm out in disgust. After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well whom knows. I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a hand gesture!!!!!!! Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what happened. At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be appreciated >Chaim
Whenever I walk into a church, I always check if there is an area where parents can sit to with their children and not dusturb others. Many larger churches provide an area enclosed by glass so the can both see and hear the service and not disturb others with their children. This enclosure would be helpful for Touretters and others that cannot control noises. I have heard from a reliable source that a young man with TS was asked not to come to services in a Mormon Church because he would yell out F..k during the service. An enclosure would have served him well.
Response:
Markus Horner (LittleH…@worldnet.att.net) wrote: : Dagoobster wrote:
: > : > Mark some questions are very hard to answer…..and faith sometimes is the : > only thing that really works….why does G-d do it? I dont know. Its a : > ggod question. But i do believ that G-d has a master plan and we are all : > parts of it. Maybe it has something to do with a previos life….maybe a : > child has a particular mission in this world….one that we as humans can : > not understand…… : > Chaim : Chaim, : No offense intended but the reasons you give are like I said before, : there the same old worn out tired excuses that I have heard a thousand : times. Example: He has a master plan that we as humans cannot : understand. This still sounds like someone is making an excuse for : something that he/she cannot give a logical explanation for. I would : never deny you the right to believe in a God if you so desire and : frankly I would like to believe also but I stand by my original : statement that I have neither seen nor heard any firm proof that a God : exists. Anyone else care to take a shot? I’m listening. : Mark Well i will tell you this mark..I havent seen any either….but so?????? there are a lot of things..evensimple things we take on faith Chaim
Response:
Fabulous! Another Cayce fan! I discovered him decades ago and his philosophy also is so logical that I have done little struggling with the Why does God allow this to happen? question because it’s all so logical. You’re braver than I though because I never explain this to except to a few close friends. Everyone else thinks I’m nuts even though they don’t notice that I don’t struggle with these philosophical questions as much as they do. I don’t want to sound superior to anyone, just satisfied that my questions have an answer (for me, anyway). I’m new to this group. My 13-year-old was diagnosed borderline ADD and TS about a year ago and I suspect he gets it from me. When I read the post about how annoyed he got when his mother was trying to direct his supper and where his mind really was, etc. I had to chuckle. That surely sounds like me. My cousins think I’m scatterbrained and one’s wife is cold to me right now because I suspect I forgot her child’s name last June! At any rate, no one’s enlightening me. Has anyone here had difficulty with social skills? Specifically, all of a sudden, people become distant and for the life of you you can’t understand why? This is becoming a real problem for me and I think it’s because I’m blurting stuff out that doesn’t seem intrusive or illogical to me although I have learned a lot over the last few decades about what is considered as so. Is this TS? Hope this isn’t too basic to answer but there’s something definitely different about me and since my son was diagnosed and I’ve learned some of the milder symptoms as well as the idea it could be inherited, I’ve been struggling for an answer to this one. Doctor won’t diagnose me as "adults have learned to cope and it’s too difficult to diagnose" and once a child is diagnosed, suddenly parents wonder if they have it (the idea being we’re hypochondriacal I guess). Any ideas or am I, indeed, a mild misfit or worrying too much? Kathy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Dagoobster wrote: > Mark some questions are very hard to answer…..and faith sometimes is the > only thing that really works….why does G-d do it? I dont know. Its a > ggod question. But i do believ that G-d has a master plan and we are all > parts of it. Maybe it has something to do with a previos life….maybe a > child has a particular mission in this world….one that we as humans can > not understand…… > Chaim
Chaim, No offense intended but the reasons you give are like I said before, there the same old worn out tired excuses that I have heard a thousand times. Example: He has a master plan that we as humans cannot understand. This still sounds like someone is making an excuse for something that he/she cannot give a logical explanation for. I would never deny you the right to believe in a God if you so desire and frankly I would like to believe also but I stand by my original statement that I have neither seen nor heard any firm proof that a God exists. Anyone else care to take a shot? I’m listening. Mark
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kathryn Taubert wrote: > >KAT, > >Let me say before I go any further that I am NOT looking for a fight or > >looking to disparge anyone else for believeing in God or any other > >supreme being if they so desire. BUT, I wish someone could give me a > >reasonable explanation or answer to my question > The question I > >have asked is, if there really is this supreme being that everyone > calls > >GOD and he is as kind as everyone says he is then why would he either > >allow or put a child into a situation that borders on almost total > >hopelessness. > You’re not pickin’ a fight, Mark. At least not with ME. I can’t tell you > how many times I asked myself that question years and years ago. How > COULD "He?" > The traditional answer "It’s not OUR PLACE to understand…we just have > to have "faith," was not enough for me either…not by any stretch of the > imagination. > And then one day, when I was about 25 or so, my sister handed me a book > called "There is a River," by Thomas Sugrue. The life of Edgar Cayce….. > and the part that piqued my curiousity were his "past life readings." > I started reading…and I read everything I could get my hands on, > primarily for the purpose of "debunking" anything that sounded so logical. > If it sounds too good to be true, it surely is, right? > Well, the bottom line is this: I ended up being a "believer." And the > more I read, the more I realized that the substance of it was what all > the great prophets of times past were saying, basically the same thing, > in different ways. Whether it was Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus……they all > had different ways of expressing the same "philosophy." > We are here to learn, to grow, to get where we need to be to arrive at > "at-one-ment" with the "higher power." > It ain’t a he or a she (what does a GOD need with sexual reproduction?). > It’s a lifeForce inherent in all of us, and with which we are a small > part. > The lot in life WE choose is precisely that…our choice….on some > "superconscious level," and everything that can be read in anyone’s Bible > or Koran or Talmud can be interpreted in this way. Metaphors aside. > It worked for me. Boy, did it. The logic was/is perfect. And what it > means, basically, is that we have lots of opportunities over lots of > lifetimes. > Way out for lots of folks in Western culture…..but 2/3 of the world’s > peoples have some foundation in this spiritual philosophy. > If you’re interested, let me know, and I’ll email you the title of an > excellent book that explains it in better detail than I. > KAT in CT
KAT, I would be interested in seeing anything that MIGHT give me some firm proof. Kat, as you know I have been through a very rough time in my life, i.e. Violent alcholic father, addict mother, a brother who was both, and TS/OCD/ADHD. Now you can add in major depression for good measure. I’m sure that you can easily understand why I find it SO hard to believe in a supreme being that is as good and almighty powerful and kind as everyone try’s to tell me. But everytime someone tells me that I ask for firm proof. As yet no one has provided it. I’m still waiting. Believe it or not KAT I really would like to believe. It’s just that after surviving my first 48 years I learned to believe in only what I can see, hear, smell, touch, or taste and nothing more. We as humans have the bad habit of inventing reasons for things that we just don’t understand. That does not mean that an answer does not exist, it just means that at that point in time we don’t know what the answer is. Does my line of logic make any sense to anyone but me? Mark
Response:
Mark some questions are very hard to answer…..and faith sometimes is the only thing that really works….why does G-d do it? I dont know. Its a ggod question. But i do believ that G-d has a master plan and we are all parts of it. Maybe it has something to do with a previos life….maybe a child has a particular mission in this world….one that we as humans can not understand…… Chaim
Response:
>KAT, >Let me say before I go any further that I am NOT looking for a fight or >looking to disparge anyone else for believeing in God or any other >supreme being if they so desire. BUT, I wish someone could give me a >reasonable explanation or answer to my question
The question I >have asked is, if there really is this supreme being that everyone calls >GOD and he is as kind as everyone says he is then why would he either >allow or put a child into a situation that borders on almost total >hopelessness.
You’re not pickin’ a fight, Mark. At least not with ME. I can’t tell you how many times I asked myself that question years and years ago. How COULD "He?" The traditional answer "It’s not OUR PLACE to understand…we just have to have "faith," was not enough for me either…not by any stretch of the imagination. And then one day, when I was about 25 or so, my sister handed me a book called "There is a River," by Thomas Sugrue. The life of Edgar Cayce….. and the part that piqued my curiousity were his "past life readings." I started reading…and I read everything I could get my hands on, primarily for the purpose of "debunking" anything that sounded so logical. If it sounds too good to be true, it surely is, right? Well, the bottom line is this: I ended up being a "believer." And the more I read, the more I realized that the substance of it was what all the great prophets of times past were saying, basically the same thing, in different ways. Whether it was Buddha, Mohammed, Jesus……they all had different ways of expressing the same "philosophy." We are here to learn, to grow, to get where we need to be to arrive at "at-one-ment" with the "higher power." It ain’t a he or a she (what does a GOD need with sexual reproduction?). It’s a lifeForce inherent in all of us, and with which we are a small part. The lot in life WE choose is precisely that…our choice….on some "superconscious level," and everything that can be read in anyone’s Bible or Koran or Talmud can be interpreted in this way. Metaphors aside. It worked for me. Boy, did it. The logic was/is perfect. And what it means, basically, is that we have lots of opportunities over lots of lifetimes. Way out for lots of folks in Western culture…..but 2/3 of the world’s peoples have some foundation in this spiritual philosophy. If you’re interested, let me know, and I’ll email you the title of an excellent book that explains it in better detail than I. KAT in CT
Response:
Explanations that sound like excuses for something they don’t truly have a logical answer for. The question I have asked is, if there really is this supreme being that everyone calls GOD and he is as kind as everyone says he is then why would he either allow or put a child into a situation that borders on almost total hopelessness. Mark, I like the fact that we are discussing whether or not there is a God, and if there is a God why he gives children TS. This topic will take the focus off whether or not it is appropriate to use a medical pass at Disney World. Regards, Diane in CT
Response:
: Chaim Shapiro wrote:
: > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do : > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ : > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish : > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! : > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be : > appreciated : > Chaim Dear Chaim, Your indignation at this shameful display has nothing to do with your Tourette’s, and everything to do with you being a decent human being. Promise yourself you will not return to that place, which has been put to shame by the actions of this person. No, you are not over reacting. And yes, I do think you should take it further. Although it may be true that your own Tourette’s made you more aware of the situation, it is as a decent human being and as a member of your religious faith that you should pursue this. There may be people who will say that you are pursuing this because of your own situation: you know this is not true. Stick it to these guys, Chaim. Lee
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kathryn Taubert wrote: > bo…@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Irina Shoushounova) wrote: > Everyone should be welcome, with > >only the exception of those being disrespectful. > And even they are to be welcomed if they modify their behavior! > and at > >times I even heard them scowl in disgust as we sat near them,"Oh, no!" > One > >time a man even approached us after and said "Why don’t you leave those > >kids home where they belong?" > The adage about church being, not a house for saints, but a hospital for > sinners is a good one, methinks. Some "hospitals" have more of the sick > than others…. > Also, a guest > >priest said we made him "nervous" sitting with the kids in the front > pews > If this guy thinks HE has problems, he oughta hafta live with the > "nervousness" of TS. Maybe, in some future lifetime, he will. > d thrashing and flailing her arms > >in a franzy in the middle of Mass….but the priest explained she was > >pocessed by the Holy Spirit and given a special gift and we are not to > be > >afriad > This was not uncommon in "the old days," and still is found among some > cultures that believe certain kinds of illnesses are actually signs of > special favor. I don’t altogether disagree with that. Let’s hope the > priest felt that way about all God’s children, including the ones with > diagnosed TS. > There is also a woman there with a medical > >problem who often makes loud "Whoop!" yelling sounds and snorths, > wheezes > >and grunts loudly as well, and this is distruptive, but she was never > >forced to leave. I think this is the right attitude; everyone should be > >welcome, and encouraged! > Sounds like TS to me!! > > I have found there are good churches, and there are not so good ones. > I > >don’t give up on God or my faith; I just find a new church where I feel > >comfortable. > Exactly. And it sounds like you’ve found one, Irina. Your perserverance > won out. Good for you! > KAT
KAT, Let me say before I go any further that I am NOT looking for a fight or looking to disparge anyone else for believeing in God or any other supreme being if they so desire. BUT, I wish someone could give me a reasonable explanation or answer to my question. So far no one has. All I have heard is the same thing. Explanations that sound like excuses for something they don’t truly have a logical answer for. The question I have asked is, if there really is this supreme being that everyone calls GOD and he is as kind as everyone says he is then why would he either allow or put a child into a situation that borders on almost total hopelessness. A child that is far above average in intelligence, a child that has more talent in four or five areas than most people ever know in just one area and then put him/her into a situation that is so difficult that it makes it virtually impossible for that child to ever make good use of even one of those talents. Before anyone gets upset let me say that I am NOT an agnostic or atheist. It’s just that I have seen or heard no firm proof that God does exist. If someone can provide that proof (without quoting the bible) then I am more than willing to seriously listen. But so far all I have heard are the same old tired worn out reasons. My feelings are don’t tell me, show me. BTW, I’m not from Missouri either. I really hope someone can give me that proof. I would like to believe but so far it’s no sale. Mark
Response:
DReeves728 (dreeves…@aol.com) wrote:
: Chaim- : I agree with you, this is despicable (sp?). I don’t think you are : overreacting at all. I think you should write your letters and make : phone calls – it will certainly continue if not exposed. I can’t imagine : why someone in his position, who more probably than not has experienced : some form of religious discrimination (but that’s another whole topic, : probably best left alone here), would do this. : If these people are not educated, reprimanded, or in some other way made : to change their actions we will all be in trouble. Good luck! : Debbie Reeves : Chaim Shapiro (ucsha…@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) writes: : > I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that : > comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On : > occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions : of : > pain. : > This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something : > that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official : positio : > in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s : > helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. : > Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent : > felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt : > storm out in disgust. : > After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother : > anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well : > whom knows. : > I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of : > the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a : > hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, : because : > every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely : > (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid : was : > disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads : away : > from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. : > Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form : > this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats : > commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did : > absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a : > hand gesture!!!!!!! : > Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do : > nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted : it : > should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what : > happened. : > At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and : > asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced : > parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. : > The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" : > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do : > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ : > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish : > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! : > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be : > appreciated : > Chaim Thanks for the replies everyone……whta i decided to do before I take any drastic or irreversible actions is have the rabbi’s nephew (a friend from school) do a little snooping….he is a good guy and I believ he will do an honest job. When i spoke to him he was shocked and promised to look into it..so ill let ya’ll know! Chaim
Response:
Chaim- I agree with you, this is despicable (sp?). I don’t think you are overreacting at all. I think you should write your letters and make phone calls – it will certainly continue if not exposed. I can’t imagine why someone in his position, who more probably than not has experienced some form of religious discrimination (but that’s another whole topic, probably best left alone here), would do this. If these people are not educated, reprimanded, or in some other way made to change their actions we will all be in trouble. Good luck! Debbie Reeves – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Chaim Shapiro (ucsha…@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu) writes: > I was at synagouge last night for services. There is an older man that > comes on Friday nights tht has an advanced case of parkinsons. On > occasion he makes some noises that lamost sound like lound expressions of > pain. > This friday night he was making these noises, and I saw something > that made me feel sick. The rabbi’s brother (who has an official positio > in the temple) went up to him and asked him to leave! The sick man’s > helper helped him out of his seat and took him home. > Well, I didnt know what to think. I felt terrible, like I havent > felt in years. But, not being 100% sure he was asked to leave, i didnt > storm out in disgust. > After a few minutes, i began to wonder, this didnt seem to bother > anyone else..maybe I was oversensitive becaus eof my own ts? Maybe..well > whom knows. > I decided to pay close attention to the service for the rest of > the night. I was shocked at what I saw. An older gentelman with a > hearing aid was praying there. It must have been malfunctioning, because > every min or so it woul emitt a high pitched sound. I watched closely > (probably neglecting my prayers a bit) and noticed cleary that his aid was > disturbing people. Every time it went off, peolle turned their heads away > from their prayer books. It was certainly making a commotion. > Well the Rabbi’s brother was sitting a mere three feet away form > this man ( th efirst mansat all the way in the back to make the leats > commotion) I watched so carefully. The rabbi’s brother said and did > absolutly nothing. He neither came up to him, made a comment or even a > hand gesture!!!!!!! > Now, a hearin aid can be taken out. A man with parkinsons can do > nothing to help what he was doing. Logically, if anyone was confronted it > should have been the man with the hearing aid. But that is not what > happened. > At the close of services, i went up to the rabbi’s brother and > asked him what happened. He told me athat this man has advanced > parkinsons and wasnt doing well today. I asked if he wanted to leave. > The response. "sometimes people need to be stongly convinced" > I am shocked and hurt. I dont know what to say or do, but I do > know this., I am not praying there anymore!~ > I am also contemplating sending this episode to ever jewish > paperimaginable….I hope they will print it! > Am I overreacting? I cant see how but feedback would be > appreciated > Chaim
Response:
>The actions of your church elders was inexcusable. NO AND I MEAN NO ONE >shold be asked to leave a place of worship unless of coarse they are >doing somethin obsence. (but this was not). I am upset these kinds of >behaviors. >I make no bones about letting my opinions known and neither should you. >Go get ‘em. >Ed
Chaim…ask yourself this question: How "God" might have behaved in this situation. Would God have asked the man to leave? "My" God wouldn’t have. The sick man would have been welcomed the same as anyone else. As for what you should do…let your conscience be your guide. You have a kind heart, and a conscience that follows suit. Just because a church/temple elder/spokesperson says or does something doesn’t make it right. In fact, it’s man’s interpretation of the" Word" that causes so many of the problems we seem to have nowadays. Personally, I’m with Ed on this one. KAT in CT
Response:
I agree it was terrible…im planning on writing letters to all the jewish papers……but i cnt help thinking…if I didnt have ts..maybe i wouldnt care..myabe im a little biased seing as how it is possible that one of my kids someday could be the one making these kinds of noises……… Chaim Please send all email to Ucsha…@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu Thanks!!!!!!!! Chaim
